Is this colregs or RRS?

[lw395]

Good point somewhat modified by the fact that better sailors usually have only transient contact with beginners. In my local squash club for example there is a mix of international players down to beginners. Those who don't swiftly grasp the safety rules, or worse willingly ignore them, soon find themselves without anyone to hit with. In the same way it's the other beginners and recreational club sailors who mostly bear the brunt of the inconsiderate few -- especially if they're sailing faster boats -- as they trudge around the course in company.

Depends on your racing. Personally I see quite a lot of the beginners, as they tend to sail in classes which start first. So we overtake them. Maybe that helps? After a few races, they've been in 'situations' and learned. Of course our actual beginners also get some coaching and do practice races where things can be learned and feedback given.
Beginners are rarely a problem, by their nature, they are willing to learn.
We take the view that if a beginner gets in our way, that's usually a tactical failure on our part, because we should have read the situation better and kept away from them. The same with a non-racing boat. Generally it's faster to keep away from other boats than to stick to your rights (under either RRS or Colregs), unless they're in your race.

 

[lw395]

As in " We are superior, we know our rights, get out of our way"

If that's what it's like at your club, I'm pleased to race elsewhere.

 

[Daydream believer]

If that's what it's like at your club, I'm pleased to race elsewhere.

If as it seems, that is the qualities you are looking for, then you certainly would be better off somewhere else.
But you will soon be on your own-- Oh ! you already are -- Now you know why.:encouragement:

 

[lw395]

If as it seems, that is the qualities you are looking for, then you certainly would be better off somewhere else.
But you will soon be on your own-- Oh ! you already are -- Now you know why.:encouragement:

What are you on about?
We get a reasonable fleet size, with some good boats I sometimes keep up with.
And with the dinghies we can always go and race some different faces now and then.

 

[Birdseye]

Mildly surprised at some of the reaction and argument on this thread, but I think lw395 illustrates in his comments the gulf that there is between keen dinghy sailors at one extreme and socially minded family cruisers racing NHC at the other. At our club we and the boys in the soap dishes race in the same water, and there are no conflicts .

I originally posted because I doubted that luffing someone in a different fleet was covered by RRS leaving aside its pointlessness as a tactic. I'm happy to accept that it is covered and will bear that in mind in future. The irony of the event of course, was that we won in our 18 boat fleet ( and last weeks race as well, so not complete numpties, lw395!) whilst the boat who luffed us came last in his 9 boat fleet despite being the fastest on handicap. So there is justice in life as well as the rules.

Probably best to close this thread now, since we dont want heat on here like the Brexit forum

 

[lw395]

Mildly surprised at some of the reaction and argument on this thread, but I think lw395 illustrates in his comments the gulf that there is between keen dinghy sailors at one extreme and socially minded family cruisers racing NHC at the other. At our club we and the boys in the soap dishes race in the same water, and there are no conflicts .

I originally posted because I doubted that luffing someone in a different fleet was covered by RRS leaving aside its pointlessness as a tactic. I'm happy to accept that it is covered and will bear that in mind in future. The irony of the event of course, was that we won in our 18 boat fleet ( and last weeks race as well, so not complete numpties, lw395!) whilst the boat who luffed us came last in his 9 boat fleet despite being the fastest on handicap. So there is justice in life as well as the rules.

Probably best to close this thread now, since we dont want heat on here like the Brexit forum

You might win in Numpty Handicap for Cheats, it's worthless.

 

[awol]

You might win in Numpty Handicap for Cheats, it's worthless.

That is unworthy of you. Continually winning indicates improvement, maybe not to Olympic standard but very satisfying to all involved.

 

[lw395]

That is unworthy of you. Continually winning indicates improvement, maybe not to Olympic standard but very satisfying to all involved.

Being satisfied by winning by not knowing or obeying the rules is really quite sad.

If birdseye wants to compare his performance to that of the bloke in the IRC class, he needs to race in the same class.
The big clue is that the IRC boat overtook him, and was not one of the best boats in IRC.

 

[Daydream believer]

Birdseye
I do not know if you realise but when you post something it comes up on others computers immediately if they have the notifications tab ticked. So if you then decide to delete it those that have a notification of a post know what you originally said.
I wish you had left your original post in place because I might have put a big +1 after it

 

[Birdseye]

No I didnt know that but never mind. There was no sense in making further comment.

 

[Pagetslady]

Glad to hear that clubs like Marconi are doing good things.
I don't know whether less people actually want to race.
Less people seem happy with the racing that is on offer?
Even Flaming keeps saying the rating system needs changing.


Hi I am the happy sailor who loves racing around the cans with 6 or 7 other like minded people in cruisers, but would love to take part in some more competitive racing, but to be honest I am frightened to death of people just like you, I assume you didn't start your first race as crew or skipper knowing it all, so how are we supposed to progress up to your standard.
So that we will feel competent enough to race in the same race or course as you.
One of the things that concern me is when approaching a mark who decides how many boat lengths is the boat closing on you it's not so much the rule I am concerned with just the distance surely this is just guess work?
I am one who starts late sometimes by design mostly bad timing to avoid getting in the way, knowing the rules is one thing but knowing how to put them into practice on the water is a different matter. Surely you can understand that you will come up against competitors who haven't made it up to your standard yet but perhaps will soon, don't they deserve some consideration. It seems you think that nobody should be on the same course as you, if they don't have the same abilities as you.
Mike.

Racing is quite diverse. Maybe what needs looking at is what experience some racing is actually providing?
I enjoy the tactical challenges of racing. Not just boats and rule, but also wind and tide tactics. But that is easily ruined if there are boats on the course not respecting the rules.
I enjoy getting the best speed out of a boat, but you get so much more feedback on this in OD racing. You at least need a rating system which you have faith in.
Take away those two aspects and you might just as well go for a 'cruise in company' or rally.

 

[lpdsn]

Hi I am the happy sailor who loves racing around the cans with 6 or 7 other like minded people in cruisers, but would love to take part in some more competitive racing, but to be honest I am frightened to death of people just like you, I assume you didn't start your first race as crew or skipper knowing it all, so how are we supposed to progress up to your standard.
So that we will feel competent enough to race in the same race or course as you.
One of the things that concern me is when approaching a mark who decides how many boat lengths is the boat closing on you it's not so much the rule I am concerned with just the distance surely this is just guess work?
I am one who starts late sometimes by design mostly bad timing to avoid getting in the way, knowing the rules is one thing but knowing how to put them into practice on the water is a different matter. Surely you can understand that you will come up against competitors who haven't made it up to your standard yet but perhaps will soon, don't they deserve some consideration. It seems you think that nobody should be on the same course as you, if they don't have the same abilities as you.
Mike.

Hi Mike,

It is very easy to be put off by the rules but they're actually your friend if you put the time in to learning them and you race in a fleet where others have done the same. Believe it or not, the apparently aggressive tactics you might get in the pre-start of a class 0 or class 1 fleet is actually a lot more organised and safer than racing further down the ladder where you have the 'cheat' who is used to getting away with it or the skipper who has never bothered to learn the rules.

You question about mark room and the zone is a good example. It is three boat lengths of the length of first boat in the overlap that reaches that distance from the mark. Of course it's not painted on the water so it is a matter of judgement/guesswork. But the rules cover this and the onus is on a boat to prove it got an overlap just in time or broke one just in time. So what you do in practice is hail the other boat 6 or 8 boat lengths out. If you have an overlap say so. And keep saying it as you keep the overlap up to the mark. You have to do it right, so you'll likely need someone on the bow. Similarly, if you're ahead and there's no overlap, hail that before you reach the zone.

 

[Birdseye]

Hi Mike,

It is very easy to be put off by the rules but they're actually your friend if you put the time in to learning them and you race in a fleet where others have done the same. Believe it or not, the apparently aggressive tactics you might get in the pre-start of a class 0 or class 1 fleet is actually a lot more organised and safer than racing further down the ladder where you have the 'cheat' who is used to getting away with it or the skipper who has never bothered to learn the rules.

As someone who competitively "cruises in company" to use IRC terms, I have to agree. On one memorable occasion I witnessed two boats on different tacks converging. The boat on port shouted "starboard" and the boat on starboard tacked. OK it was a chaps girlfriend helming and she was new to the whole idea but it made for a good laugh when the boyfriend lept up the companionway and saw what had happened.

You question about mark room and the zone is a good example. It is three boat lengths of the length of first boat in the overlap that reaches that distance from the mark. Of course it's not painted on the water so it is a matter of judgement/guesswork. But the rules cover this and the onus is on a boat to prove it got an overlap just in time or broke one just in time. So what you do in practice is hail the other boat 6 or 8 boat lengths out. If you have an overlap say so. And keep saying it as you keep the overlap up to the mark. You have to do it right, so you'll likely need someone on the bow. Similarly, if you're ahead and there's no overlap, hail that before you reach the zone.

Easier said than done. And the "prove it" bit is something that many wish to avoid getting involved in. Its for the barrack room lawyers amongst us.

 

[DFL1010]

On one memorable occasion I witnessed two boats on different tacks converging. The boat on port shouted "starboard" and the boat on starboard tacked. OK it was a chaps girlfriend helming and she was new to the whole idea but it made for a good laugh when the boyfriend lept up the companionway and saw what had happened.

Hilarious.
Or a breach of Rule 2, I'm not sure which.

 

[awol]

Indubitably a breach of RRS 2.
One way of gauging your 3 boat-lengths distance is to consider it as a time e.g. for a 10m boat at 6kts 3 boat-lengths take 10 seconds; at 5kts, 12 seconds. Practice counting 10 seconds (or whatever number the calculation gives you for length and speed) sailing away from and towards a buoy to calibrate your brain and eye.

 

[lpdsn]

Easier said than done. And the "prove it" bit is something that many wish to avoid getting involved in. Its for the barrack room lawyers amongst us.

It's common practice and works pretty well. By establishing that there is or is not an overlap before you reach three boat lengths usually settles the matter. Where it goes wrong is when someone tries to claim an overlap from the cockpit - the counter argument of how could you tell is difficult to refute.

I'm not sure what your alternative to the recognised protest process is as you clearly believe it is not the way to settle disputes or misunderstandings regarding the rules. Are you advocating raising entry fees to pay for a fleet of on the water umpires?

 

[lpdsn]

As someone who competitively "cruises in company" to use IRC terms, I have to agree. On one memorable occasion I witnessed two boats on different tacks converging. The boat on port shouted "starboard" and the boat on starboard tacked. OK it was a chaps girlfriend helming and she was new to the whole idea but it made for a good laugh when the boyfriend lept up the companionway and saw what had happened.

That sounds like someone just having a bit of a joke in a non-serious race. Apart from anything else if he was trying to win a proper race what was the boyfriend doing down below.

 

[awol]

Apart from anything else if he was trying to win a proper race what was the boyfriend doing down below.

Packing the kite?

 

[lw395]

That sounds like someone just having a bit of a joke in a non-serious race. Apart from anything else if he was trying to win a proper race what was the boyfriend doing down below.

I've seen similar, people can confuse left and right when panicking.
Let alone port and starboard.

A wise racer would have spotted an inexperienced helm and kept clear.
Never mind RRS Rule 2.
Unwritten Rule 1 for having a good race is 'know who needs to be avoided'.
UWR 2 is obviously 'Avoid them'.
It's like riding a motorbike in traffic.

 

[Birdseye]

I'm not sure what your alternative to the recognised protest process is as you clearly believe it is not the way to settle disputes or misunderstandings regarding the rules. Are you advocating raising entry fees to pay for a fleet of on the water umpires?

Good god NO.
If I wanted to waste money , I could always go IRC. No I am simply saying that like a lot of others I dont go racing to have mock trials about the rules afterwards. If someone wants to protest me they can do and I'll do the turns whether I think they are justified or not. Life is to short to have conflict over something as trivial as yacht racing. Its supposed to be fun not life and death.

But thats my view. others take a different line . We are free to have different approaches. Incidentally I dont think there is anything in the rule that says you have to contest a protest against you. Is there?

That sounds like someone just having a bit of a joke in a non-serious race. Apart from anything else if he was trying to win a proper race what was the boyfriend doing down below.

Courtesy of my Fair Lady " by god he's got it" . :encouragement: Racing where leg pulling in the bar afterwards is as important part of the fun