Is the Yachtmaster

[iangrant]

Most useful costal/pilotage tool

Lots of nails being hit on the head in this thread I reckon..

After a week I had to have the hand bearing compass surgically removed from my hand but by God I'm glad to have the experience with it. Dark creeks and bearings, round unlit cans etc... so what if the GPS goes pop --

Mind you, I did get a bolloking from the examiner for NOT using the GPS...

Ian

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[jimi]

Och .. I think it would be only fair to let them have a semi useable rudder until they enter port and then it can fail completely ;-)

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[stoker_3rd_class]

I did my Yachtmaster practicle last October in fairly challenging conditions on a friends boat. Am I a better sailor for having done the exam? Probably, I definately learnt plenty in the run up to the exam (mostly from Tom Cunliffe's book) and even during the exam itself.

I think that doing some sort of formal training is a good way to channel your future experience in sensible directions but that, in the end, its experience that counts.

--ian

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[Peppermint]

Re: Training is always a curates egg

Most of the yachtmaster is perfectly valid. Blending old techniques and some more upto date stuff to arrive at a useful level of knowledge for cruising in the way that most people do it.

The exam is testing enough for most people because the RYA have some pretty good examiners, who quickly work out the strengths and weakness' of candidates.

The more experienced you are the more you expect to pass and the more devastating failure would be. If you've had a varied sailing experience and you've paid attention you should pass OK but what if you didn't.

I've just been looking into Superyacht officer training for an article I've written and the difference is marked. The MCA scheme expects YM as the very minimum starting point, you have to have 3 years commercial experience recorded in the correct way and the training is about 45 days of classroom and an oral exam. The course is modular and designed for working commercial crew very much like Merchant Marine training.

The biggest problem for most leisure sailors is not the content of the RYA training it's more to do with experience and how that experience is measured. For many, particularly boat owners, they know there local area like the back of their hand and so don't need to do much navigation or pilotage. Twice a year they get a longer trip or two in if they're lucky but often that's covering a well trodden path from marina to marina. Night trips are rare and night entries into strange harbours almost unheard of. Few do any training on emergency procedures. Charterers are generally on a learning curve with the boat and it's kit and are often less comfortable about their cruising areas as it's not always their usual patch.

Should you choose to get your 2500 miles in by repeatedly going to Cherbourg from Portsmouth or Lymington to Weymouth in the same type of boat, thats OK, but your log book will tell your examiner what type of experience you've had. I put down my own easy passage to YM to the fact that my log book is like a Boy's Own adventure.

Once you have your YM and your commercial endorsements some companies will give you a job taking the public sailing but most won't. Not without looking at you as a person very carefully. I can remember taking a big old boat to Scotland with a crew of 11. I was the only person on board without a YM but I was the skipper. So the qualification is a garnish to the person not the beef.

Like with most things the value is in the eye of the beholder. The most common complaint from non holders is about the relevance of the content. I've been there myself but in truth I was a middle aged know it all, unused to being examined and scared of failing. So what value do I put on my achievement. None. Sailings easy.



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[jimi]

Re: Training is always a curates egg

seriously though,

If you step back a little the RYA is providing a pogression of training targets from competent crew through to YM and it does introduce achievable objectives for most. For a newcomer to sailing the progression is very satisfying and does give a good sound theoretical basis (and I'm including the practical as well as the true theory) on which to found one's future sailing experience. However there is no real teacher like experience .. and obviously the more varied that is, the more is learnt ..

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[dralex]

Re: Training is always a curates egg

Well said. I do think there can be too much slating of RYA qualifications, especially by the more traditionally minded. It is a great framework to work from, but the final responsibilty has to rest with how people use the knowledge they have acquired and the application of common sense in realising that the qualification is just the starting point from which to develop as an all round sailor. I am still keen to do the exam as a consolidation of what I am learning on my own boat. I also think it would be nice to do it on my boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[rwoofer]

I also think blind nav is an important skill, but when I have encountered a blind nav situation I use all information sources that are available to me - GPS, depth, sound signals etc. Being locked up at the nav table does not encourage the use of all that is available.

The challenge is that there is simply to much to teach and my observation was simply that there some YM courses don't seem to equip the successful candidates with skills they need everyday, but do equip them with things they are likely to never do.

I think we are all agreeing that experience is the most important thing and the YM can set you in the right direction, but YM without experience can lead to trouble...in surprisingly ordinary situations.

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[alant]

Your test (taking a time of 19hours-1700 until 1200hrs day 2), would require them to sail @ 3+Knots VMG along the rhumb line in a F6 directly on the nose.
Attainable in a small 10metre yacht?? A test of skill? What would this prove? Why are they doing it? A good skipper is surely a good boat manager, not one who subjects a crew to a trip like this, unless a potential Capt Blyth.




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[ParaHandy]

Re: Direct Access m/cs

don't want to be picky, but momentum of an older, heavier, boat at 6kn might be 2 or 3 times that of an R1 (at the legal limit ... !!).

of course, said boat is fortunate in having good directional control unlike some lighter tupperware pots, I hear .... !!!!!

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[starboard]

One thing it will never replace is experiance....I only see it as a scam to make money for the RYA.....A friend of mine recently qualified as RYA instructor after only sailing for 4 years told me I was not qualified to instruct despite my 38 years sailing from dinghies to 55ft ofshore yachts, 15 years as RNLI Arran class lifeboat Coxwain and commercial fishing in the Channel....This friend however was happy to ask for my advice when he was a novice only a few years ago!!!!!!!!
If you have the money you can buy any piece of paper!!!!

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[Guest]

Professionals ??????

Like Many on the forums - I have had MN training and I continued for 17 yrs on ships till I got fed up with crew numbers reducing and work-load increasing to make up etc. As an officer I was doing more and more papers instead of the real job I was trained for....... plus in latter stages training MY replacements from the 3rd World ...

Why do I post on this matter ..... having - again like many on the forum, so I submit this as my view - spent most of my life on boats - owner and crew, as well as professional shipping ..... Bridge Watchkeeping /Navigating etc. - I feel I have a broad view. The two disciplines are completely different and cannot be quoted in same breath. It took nearly 4 yrs for me to reach the 'lowest' officer qualified stage of 3rd Mate .... and countless more to go up the ladder. To reach Master it was not possible before reaching the age of 26+ ... the sheer requirement in time and sea-time etc. prevented early risers !! Average age for an Officer to obtain Masters position .... note not the Licence !! ...... would be late 30's to mid 40's.

Now lets take the YM etc. - or even the Superyacht classification ..... sorry but they are not in the same ball-game. BUT I do not decry or belittle them. They have real value in their own way and context.

I have been paddling about on boats etc. since 5 yrs old .... I still don't know all the answers and I am sure that a YM course would teach me something ... I know there are times I am unsure of what to do - so make a decision and stick with it ... or even ask the crew.

If people waNt to increase their knowledge - great - I am all for it.

Lets make a comparison ..... go to college and take a dgree in Mathematics or other subject ..... How much is really relevant to any maths problem / work in your life after .... but you have a qualification that shows you know something ....

I upset Ian Grant one time with a silly comment - nothing was meant and unfortunately it was stupid and indicated a slur on the YM exam .... that was not intended and I say this in public to show my appreciation of those that do want to learn / improve.

OK onto the minus points ..... I am sick and tired of qualified prats thinking because they have a YM or other RYA paper that they should tell me and others how to sail there boats etc.
I have great delight in informing that I do not have any yacht qualification ... letting them prattle on and then blowing them asunder with seagoing knowledge and nav ..... lets say its my little game !!

Final word .... there are prats on yachts, there are prats on ships ... papers do not maketh the man, papers do not impart knowledge and experience ... that is gained by looking, listening and learning from waht happens around you every day ....

Phew .... I need a beer !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

In Baltics ....

Having a boat in Latvia and also another in Estonia ..... I come up foul on qualifications .... luckily understanding persons that shall remain unamed turn a blind eye because of my MN tickets ....

But the point is .... particularly the Estonian reqt is a real serious bit of paper and anyone who completed the course and became qualified is a real yacht-skipper. I have a qualified Estonian Yacht Skipper as 'techincal skipper' of my race boat and I reckon he's about one of the best yachties I have ever sailed with .... despite his young years etc.
Another fact out here - is that yachts are inspected for safety and compliance with a code based on the RYA Yacht safety booklet ... I forget its real name and number .... seriously !!

So to say that YM will be watered down to comply with compulsory testing may not be the case ..... if Estonia is followed in principle - the exam will have to be beefed up and more critical !!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Mike21]

Sorry Paul, have to disagree about RYA.
At least with the RYA the person instructing you should be of a certain standard.
Experience is fine , but unless you have an aptitude for teaching it won't be of too much use.
As you know my wife is a RYA YM instructor for motor boats and only started on boats 6 years ago, but from what I've been told she is better than some of the more experienced people.

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[jimi]

Might prove something if they told you to sod off;-)

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Professionals ??????

My great uncles, two of which still survive of seven used to run the family smack. Sail out in all weathers, trawl under sail and sail back fully loaded, every day.

They did this without certificates. And after years of this they would not be allowed to charter a yacht for a holiday. It is quite funny really that the sport has become engulfed in bureaucracy in this way.

I am all for the training, I would like to give it a go sometime but my wallet is not that deep at the moment. I learnt boating in sailing dinghies and then on trawlers, Working with family on a trawler as 'the boy' is a very quick way to learn about the dangers onboard a boat, being family was definitely no easy ride.

Sailing larger boats is still new to me and I feel I would benefit more from having an instructor show me how to set up my sails better than learning something I used to do for a living.

But not everyone was bought up around boats, so the yachtmaster has a definite place in the sport, it is just not IMO the be all and end all of how to judge a skipper worthy.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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[AlienP2]

Did the YM theory a few years ago. Reasons:

Filled in the winter evenings
Learnt something about running transits
Met up once a week with boaty types about 80 miles from the sea
Beer afterwards

All this was in the days before Scuttlebutt. Now its more of the same, but with cyberfriends.

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[BlueSkyNick]

Nice to meet you ...... mine's a pint of bitter !

<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[StugeronSteve]

Re: Is the Yachtmaster....

....asleep? Make mine a pint too.

<hr width=100% size=1>Semper Bufo

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

Re: Is the Yachtmaster....

Some conterversial views here

The YM qualification is for leisure sailors a voluntary exam. It is a mark of self achievment and I believe all candidates (pass or fail) learn some new tricks both in the training stages and under examination.

Surely learning collision regulations must make you a better skipper as you can react quickly and correctly to lights and sounds.

The blind nav excersise using only the compass, your watch, log and echo sounder is aimed at testing candidates understanding of navigation. In real fog no one in their right mind would ignore the radar or gps, but the simulated RYA fog encourages skippers to pay more attention to secondary ports, tidal heights and contour lines. These skills can be easily transferred into many other situations and I found there was a great satisfaction in blind naving into harbours.

For commercial operators the YM qualification is in effect a driving license, the pre requesites ensure that candidates are experienced sailors, and the exam ensures that they can cope with a variety of situations the sea may throw at them.

The issue of fast track students is often a popular one on this forum. My own thought is that a student who sails intensivly day in, day out for some 14 or 15 weeks has in fact picked up a vast amount of experience. This experience has been structured and along the way the candidate has been coached and pushed on all areas. I never attended a YM fast track course myself, instead I learned the hard and slow way. With hindsight I would go back a decade or so and fast track the YM course.




<hr width=100% size=1>For RYA Courses, click
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stormforce.biz> Stormforce Coaching </A>

 

[Peppermint]

Re: I suspect you\'d be disappointed

an RYA cruising course is a poor place to learn about sailing.

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