Is the Yachtmaster

[iangrant]

qualification more than a personal achevement award do we think?
After speaking to an insurance company when I happend to ask about a discount for being a yachtmaster, "ho ho, there are so many of you it makes no difference" came the reply.

Got me thinking as to the value of the YM. We all take the same course we all do the same hours, did the same grueling scary test for that coveted RYA "badge". Even SWMBO has been heard to utter a resentful "just because you are a ...........etc.." Let alone the professional seamen who have their own opinion that I'm sure they will voice here..

Which takes me on to the course and the test the outline of which being able to demonstrate how to:
Get into a Solent creek that you'd never be daft enough to do sober. Collect a fender and rope from the water under sail and power, moor up without denting something, feed the examiner. don't beat your crew too hard, answer an obscure question or two on sound signals, anchor under sail and power to a spot within two microns of a well tested transit, pretend the fog has come in, etc...... (sorry about the Solent creek, don't know what the further flung examiners do)

Makes you wonder what the fast tracks feel like after being spat out the end of their course?

Just a thought.

Ian





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[boatless]

Don't know, I've only got an ICC!

Probably just an under achiever...

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[ubuysa]

Well, I'm merely a Coastal Skipper, but I think they're both little more than a "driving test". Perhaps CS is a basic driving test whilst YM is a more advanced driving test. But, IMHO, they both just mean you're basically competent and safe, little more. Just like the driving test for a car, you learn to pass them and then you spend the rest of your life learning how to sail well.

Just my opinion......Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[dralex]

Before having a boat, RYA courses and qualifications seemed very important, but I think this is because I had infrequent access to a yacht and it seemed a good way of going sailing and increasing personal confidence for when chartering. I found the courses really useful. They really came into their own when I first owned a boat, but since then have become less of an issue as personal experience builds. I have not got as far as YM, but had logged >2500 miles before owning the first boat. I still felt lacking in confidence initially, but the RYA courses gave me a framework to hang my new experience on and build safely on it. I still get nervous before parking a boat in close confines though.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[rwoofer]

Don't have a yachtmaster and not sure I want one.

What I don't really understand is that even though I have been sailing continuously for 25 years, I don't think that I would pass a yachtmaster test ( I know as I did a mock test once). This is at odds with my real life evidence that suggests that I'm probably I lot more competent than than many so called yachtmasters.

Why would this be?

I can only think that much of what is taught and tested is rarely ever used whereas what is left out is what happens 99% of the time in real life. Eg. who would only rely on a depthsounder in a blind nav situation???







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[jamesjermain]

Yes and no

The YM 'qualificatsion' is on the cusp of being a qualification AND a badge if personal achievement. In the past it was mainly the latter, but increasingly it is seen as confirmation that the holder has at least some basic competence, particularly when it comes to chartering. If you are sailing a British flagged private craft, there is still no legal requirement for you to hold a qualification of any sort anywhere in the world unless you enter inland waters.

There are many, on this board, who are cynical about the YM qualification, particularly the Fast Track course. To an extent this cynicism comes from a misunderstanding of what the YM is about and designed to do. What is undeniable, I believe, is that there is, as yet, no better system of amateur yacht training and qualification anywhere in the world, which is why the RYA is being asked to approve schools using their sylabus in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, America and elsewhere.

What worries me is that, should compulsory training legislation be brought in, a sort of watered down YM will have to be devised solely to satisfy the law. Inevitably this will quickly be regarded as all that is need to become 'qualified' and 'competent'. Fewer people bother doing the full YM and a reduction, not an increase, in average competence will result.

When it comes to the training of professional and semi-professional yachtsmen, the commercial endorsement of the YM is a bit of a cop-out. It serves it purpose, but does not give the sort of specialist training the large charter yacht market really needs and falls some way short of the breadth of competence needed by long distance delivery skippers, to cite two examples.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[bedouin]

I'm a bit curious about this...

You think you would fail your YM test, but don't think you'll bother taking it and think that you are more competent than many YMs.

The fact that you think you would fail suggests that the YM tests, and regards as critical, a skill you do not think you have but that you also do not think is necessary.

I'm interested to know what skill(s) this is that RYA think are important for a safe skipper that you do not?

I don't believe that the ability to pass YM automatically makes one a safe skipper but I'm intrigued as to why you think the emphasis of the test is wrong...

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

I get a 10% discount on my insurance premium from Bishop Skinner for being a YM. I dont view having a YM as anything other than a badge signifying a personal achievement and it is certainly no substitute for experience or common sense

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[rwoofer]

A skill that seems to be tested that I would definitely fail on:

Lights - why memorise, I just look them up in the almanac. Even people I know who have memorised them still look them up in the almanac just to make sure.

On some of your other points, I guess I'm saying that the YM course can only cover a small amount of what sailing is about so why cover things that are very unlikely to happen. eg. the blind nav example is a situation that is tested that I have never heard of anyone experiencing in real life (especially when people typically have at least 2 GPSes on board). The real shame of teaching something that is unlikely to be used is that over time people will completely forget it through lack of practice.

Although I only did a mock practical, I have actually passed theory and the one area that I thought would be genuinely useful, Meteorology, is generally very poorly taught. My wife did the theory ten years later than I and came away with the same impression. Since weather is probably the biggest factor in safe sailing this would be one area I would put more emphasis on - not just the synoptic chart bit, but recognising changing conditions and why conditions experienced might not be what the forecast says.

Of course it could be that I was not taught well, and that some of the YMs I have met were qualified but inexperienced......(not wishing to start the fast track debate again).




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[BlueSkyNick]

My view is that the Day Skipper equates to a provisional driving license, and YM is like passing the actual test. Then you start to gain real experience.

There are of course many excellent sailors who don't bother with the scheme and nor should they need to. However, although the RYA scheme is voluntary, it kind of becomes compulsory for anybody who wants to go for commercial or instructor status, for example to supplement income in retirement.

<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Yes and no

as the apparent stringency of motor vehicle driving licenses are held to be superior to and safer than anything required by leisure boaters, its interesting to compare the fast-track unrestricted motor cycle license with the YM fast-track. Both do the same thing but there is anecdotal evidence that bikers with a fast-track license are more likely to be involved in an accident. Lack of experience would be a probable cause whereas I thought that a YM qualification required considerable sea miles before you got to sit the exams. Both seem to me to be a way of 'buying' a qualification without essential experience .....

I did hear a comment that people with considerable experience found the YM exam difficult. They tripped up on obscure details whereas a well-drilled fast-track candidate didn't ...

I also wonder whether 57% of candidates to a YM fail as happens with driving licenses eg just how stringent is the YM before it's "watered down" and I do agree with you about reduction in average competence ...

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[Sunnyseeker]

I had several years experience but did the YM a few years ago so that I could take charter guests on my own boat, and do deliveries of friends boats (some insurance companies want the bits of paper even when its just moving a friends yacht)

I was a bit of a sceptic, but actually found having someone on board who not only examined but also made you question how you went about making decisions that had become second nature, very valuable in focusing on how decisions were made.
Putting your self in the 'what if' sitiuations and really seeing how you cope, can make you re-asses your approach. I enjoyed it a learnt some more.

I do think the fast track approach ends up being predominantly theoretical, as you simply can't in a short space of time experience the ammount of variety the sea can throw at you. I've sailed with FT YM's and seen this in practice.


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[rwoofer]

Re: Yes and no

"I did hear a comment that people with considerable experience found the YM exam difficult. They tripped up on obscure details whereas a well-drilled fast-track candidate didn't ..."

I think this is another angle on what I was attempting (poorly) to say. Fast-track courses are much more focussed on passing the exam. I "failed" my mock practical because I didn't get the full weather forecast written down (too early in the morning for me and it was a benign forecast).

Having done a fasttrack motorcycle course myself I think the analogy is a good one, because the fasttrack method has the highest pass rate of any of the learning styles. The higher accident rate is probably because fast-track people tend to be time poor, cash rich and can therefore afford to go and buy a big bike when they pass.


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[jamesjermain]

Direct Access m/cs

I'm interested by your comparison, Parhandy, as I recently did a direct access m/c course - and past at the third attempt.

When I fifrst learned it was possible to go from having never set foot on an m/c to being qualified to ride a Yamaha R1 capable of 170mph in just five days I was horrified - but it didn't stop me (I was quite surprised that I would be riding, under supervision, a 500cc machine capable of 140 mph within 24 hours).

The motor cycle training I had was first class, but there was no way I was up to riding a serious, 1,000cc sportsbike at the end of it.

There is a difference between 4 tons of GRP moving at 6 knots in open water and 290kg of steel moving at 170mph on a crowded motorway but there is no doubt that, while learning the theory and basic techniques is an essential grounding, competence only comes through experience.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[jamesjermain]

Blind nav

I have used blind nav, including echosounder and detailed, six minute plotting sequences, twice: once on a boat fitted only with traditional nav aids and once on a boat whose electronics had failed. One was my own boat. On both occasions I was glad I had done the course

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[bedouin]

Lights is an interesting issue - if you are navigating in a busy area then you can't really keep dashing down to the chart table to try to read your almanac under the reduced or non existent light you would be using at night so a sound basis understanding is required. However perhaps it is good enough to know that a certain set of lights it a vessel you keep clear of - so the distinction between constrained by draught, NUC and restricted ability ot manoeuvre are perhaps not too important.

But given that it is an exam it is not unreasonable to expect the candidates to brush up on them beforehand - even if they forget them again afterwards and have to look them up in the future.

I would put "blind nav" and "recovery of MOB" in the category of skills that I think a "Yachtmaster" needs to have. For example in fog you can't necessarily rely on GPS being accurate enough to navigate close to shore. Given that they can be tested while also observing other skills - such as ability to handle the crew and general boat handling, I tend to think they are a good thing.

If you were to replace them what sort of skills would you prefer them to examine that might be more useful?

To my mind the biggest weakness of the YM is that it doesn't cover (for example) heavy weather sailing - but it is difficult to see how that can be included in a practical exam

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[jimbouy]

A interesting thread.

I did Dayskipper theory last winter and am about to do my second weekend of DS practical with HSY. My view of dayskipper (and the DSC radio) courses is that you can't fail but it does, and has, give a very good starting point on which to build ones sailing experience.

I've just signed up for YM theory this coming winter. Now one of my fellow pupils is keen to do the YM practical again with HSY next year.

Myself I think I'd like to gain a couple of years experience, and a bigger boat, read the sylabus etc. Then be tested on my own boat.

Personally I would feel this to be more of an achievement than attending a course where the company concerned has a vested interest in passing you.

All the courses so far have been most enjoyable. Theory thru the local adult ed. is good value... but practical with a sailing school.... wow expensive.

Jim

<hr width=100% size=1> "It is a pleasure to give advice, humiliating to need it, normal to ignore it"

 

[jimi]

Acshully I think the YM exam should consist of:

Take a boat with an about to be knackered impeller and two novice crew. Dump them early evening at a port 60 miles directly downwind F6 from their target destination. TEll them the boat must be at target port by midday the following day. See what happens.

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[oldsaltoz]

<<<qualification more than a personal achevement award do we think>>>


Ok my turn,

After bobbing around the oceans for several (40+) years, I decided it was time to upgrade from 'an experianced sailor' to an Offshore Yachtmaster.

This was through the AYF (Australian Yachting Federation) and the requirements were that I first had to do the inshore, coastal and then the offshore, needless to say this did not happen over night; but 3 years after deciding to do it I have my little book.

Now, as to weather it's more than just a personal achievement, or is actually something of value in the commercial world or even at club or social sailing levels.

I would have to say a resounding yes. Some insurance companies will give you a discout, or the person who's boat you are delivering may get a bit off their insurance, some insurance insist on qualifications.

But I think we are all missing something here, The course teaches you carry out a huge number of tasks and activities in a safe, tried and true manner. It also explains why you have been doing things for years in a particular way, rather than parrott fashion without fully understanding the content. How to read the weather has been highlighted and I agree it is a very important aspect of safe sailing. As for the blind navigation and comments like "we all have at least 2 GPS systems on board", let me assure you the day will arrive when you have to revert to basics, and you don't know or understand them you are in perril of the sea.

Try reading a GPS in heavy rain, radio waves do not pass thru water, so the results may well off actual, we had a passenger ferry run into a reef during a tropical squall, the skipper was blinded and relying GPS to steer away from the reef, and ran right into it, depth sounder no use as the reef comes straight up from the bottom, the compass was reading just fine, but no one looks at that when they have GPS....

If you have to shift your yacht but can't do it yourself for what ever reason, would you put her in the hands of an 'experianced skipper' or an experianced skipper with qualifications???

I think a YM endorsement is more than just a personal achievement...

Avagoodweekend.



<hr width=100% size=1> Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Growing old is unavoidable. However, growing up is still optional.

 

[bedouin]

With or without a rudder?

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