Is the proposed Oban Marina a good idea?

[webcraft]

. . . for a marina that will only see use basicaly May to September the economics just do not work out.

Brian Swinbanks of Tobermory Harbour Authority would profundly disagree with you, and as he has experience of running precisely this type of development I would humbly suggest that his opinion might be more relevant than yours.

From the minutes of an OBM meeting in September 2010:

The Tobermory Experience – Brian Swinbanks, Tobermory Harbour Association.

Brian: don’t be disappointed by web forum comments, where supporters list their names and detractors are anonymous; words do not build infrastructure. This is an opportunity to rebuild the project; re-assess support of funders; partnership and community enterprise are the way forward, profit not required. Infrastructure at sea is required in Oban, esp. in community ownership.

Tobermory now into phase 6; currently investigating breakwater for shelter from NE wind.

Tob started small, when funding was a little easier. In 2004 = 2985 boat nights, 2009 = 7314 boat nights; x 4 people per boat = 30,000 people ashore, @ £30 per head = minimum spend £1M;

supports infrastructure way above its small population size of 1000 inc. 17 restaurants; 100% pontoon occupancy during height of summer; still looking to expand income streams; and supporting all kinds of local support services.

Brian felt this was a no-brainer, THA with 40 berths and 26 swinging moorings make a profit.

(I don't know where Brian got his figures of £30 per head spend ashore, but I assume it is from one of the studies done by the various tourist organisations. However, this figure refers to benefit of the local economy. The pontoon development is profitable in its own right).


Morvern, if you are so sure it is NOT going to be profitable then can you perhaps give us your own breakdown of the figures involved and let us know where they were derived from?


- W

 

[Morven]

Webby, with respect, have you had access to the wave study carried out around 2001, I have. The results of that basicaly were a once in 10 year North westerly would generate a 1m plus swell that would wreck any open pontoons or floating breakwaters, but hey ho what do I know. And no I cannot give you precise figures, client confidentiality and commercial secrecy and all that.

 

[Blueboatman]

Sorry, the £30 per head once you've paid 20-40 for the boat just looks ridiculous, and I sail the solent!
Mummy and daddy and two kids MIGHT spend 120 in a day once per week when cruising for two weeks but who is to say at which port they tend to splash out on a weekly Tescos shop or a posh night out-£120 ouch!

 

[Morven]

I might hazard a guess that the spend figures are from a survey that was conducted a few years ago by all the marinas in Scotland in conjunction with Sailscotland and Scottish Tourism.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Sorry, the £30 per head once you've paid 20-40 for the boat just looks ridiculous, and I sail the solent!
Mummy and daddy and two kids MIGHT spend 120 in a day once per week when cruising for two weeks but who is to say at which port they tend to splash out on a weekly Tescos shop or a posh night out-£120 ouch!

Its likely to be an average and not just cash strapped yacht owning Mummy and Daddies. A lot of yacht owners I know would spend the berthing fee and have a meal in a restaurant. In addition the charter fleet is quite busy and is usually funded by a crew who enjoy the low cost associated with shared expenditure i.e. each crew member won't mind his small berthing share followed by a big spend on meals and drink plus victualling from the shops. Sorry Blueboatman but if you take just a bit of time to think about it, its easy to see that £30 per person is a reasonable spend.

However, it may not be comparable as Tobermory is a great destination and nearly a must do if sailing up that way. I don't think Oban is a must do if sailing down that way. Oban is get in and get out again stop, at least it is to me.

 

[webcraft]

However, it may not be comparable as Tobermory is a great destination and nearly a must do if sailing up that way. I don't think Oban is a must do if sailing down that way. Oban is get in and get out again stop, at least it is to me.

Maybe, but Oban is also a place to do much more general vittling so the spend per head on basics will be higher. Apart from groceries the town is a source of other things, including chandlery and ironmongery. Last time I had to come into Oban and go alongside a vessel at the North Pier it was to buy two sleeping bags for ill-equipped crew.

I think also that you (and others) are being a little hard on Oban. It has some reasonable shops and restaurants, decent pubs, the cinema is returning, a walk up to McCaigs is rewarding in the right weather. and if it's raining you can go round the distillery.

- W

 

[webcraft]

Webby, with respect, have you had access to the wave study carried out around 2001, I have. The results of that basicaly were a once in 10 year North westerly would generate a 1m plus swell that would wreck any open pontoons or floating breakwaters, but hey ho what do I know. And no I cannot give you precise figures, client confidentiality and commercial secrecy and all that.

That, with all due respect, is not a profitability study, it is a wave study. having been called on one issue you jump to another one, a classic technique when caught on the hop in a debate. (I too have wondered about the survivability of the development in a NW blow, but Dunstaffnage survives similar onslaughts and the occasional Easterly in Tobermory hasn't wrecked the pontoons yet either).

Re. onshore spend figures - that is irrelevant to the profitability of the facility, which is a matter of berth nights, charges and costs. The fact is that Tobermory pontoons run at a profit, so all income into the village is a bonus.

I wonder - are you one of the 'consultants' that the Council has spent vast amounts of public money on over the years while prevaricating endlessly on this matter?



- W

 

[Morven]

That, with all due respect, is not a profitability study, it is a wave study. having been called on one issue you jump to another one, a classic technique when caught on the hop in a debate. (I too have wondered about the survivability of the development in a NW blow, but Dunstaffnage survives similar onslaughts and the occasional Easterly in Tobermory hasn't wrecked the pontoons yet either).

Re. onshore spend figures - that is irrelevant to the profitability of the facility, which is a matter of berth nights, charges and costs. The fact is that Tobermory pontoons run at a profit, so all income into the village is a bonus.

I wonder - are you one of the 'consultants' that the Council has spent vast amounts of public money on over the years while prevaricating endlessly on this matter?



- W

Marina Operations 101. Your annual customers are your bread and butter, the provide your customer base and your main source of income. Your yard provides your secondary source of income with hoisting and boat storage. Additional revenue streams come from renting space to tennants for businesses, fuel and gas sales etc. As far as I understand it and from what I can see of the proposals this will be a summer only operation as the floating breakwaters just will not be capable of sheltering boats from a good winter storm. The only thing that will do that is a proper rock breakwater as proposed to the Council back in 2001 / 2002 and that is just too expensive to justtify building because your revenue stream is just too thin. IIRC the the proposal was abandoned as the return on investment based on resonably optomistic visitors figures was less than 1%.

You seem to think I am against this project, I am not, Oban realy needs it. I just have severe reservations as to the viability of it both winter weather wise and economicaly. And no I am not involved in this but was involved in a much earlier attempt to build a "Summer Berthing Station" on the North pier before the restaurant was built.

 

[snooks]

From a visiting yachtsman's point of view.....

It would have been nice to visit Oban by boat, go ashore, have a shower, cuppa tea and cake in the teashop on the front, visit the distillery, head off to the butcher for a stack of fresh meat, take that and the bottles of whisky back to the boat, set off again for a big shop, then go off to Kerrera for the night...(preferably without having to pay for drinks on one side of the patio and food on the other).

As it was we went to Kerrera, walked past a big pile of dog poo on a hose on the pontoon, had a shower - that wasn't clean or tidy, got the 1 boat an hour to Oban, went to the distillery, then took our bottles of cask strength we bought to the tea shop, and onto the butchers, and finally around the supermarket, then had to hump all of it back to the boat in the rain via the excellent little ferry service.

When we visited the Tobermory pontoons we were surprised to find out that a short stay there was free, so we stayed a bit longer, had a good (if hot) shower, bit of shopping, visit the mish nish and then off with the tide around Ardnamurchan.

We would have probably spent more (time and money) in Oban if we could have done the same, i.e. dropped things back at the boat easily. So a walkashore pontoon would have been a boon. We would have also been able to go across in the morning to get fresh stuff for breakfast before heading off, which isn't really an option at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... I think also that you (and others) are being a little hard on Oban. ....]

Perhaps, but as a Wegie I can't help looking down on Highlander decorum.

Oban is a lovely place. I have had loads and loads of holidays there and had my Honeymoon just south of Oban. Its my bolt hole when I really need to get away from it all. The best porridge ever was served in the Lancaster Hotel by an ancient waiter who always had a spot of the stuff on his chin. I find it a very quirky place but that corner where the transit marina is proposed is just a gap between piers and no one should think its anything special considering the other ends of the bay. A marina would in my opinion improve the outlook quiet significantly.

My comment on getting in and out of Oban quickly is because the sailing and scenery outside the bay is why I am sailing there, not for the flesh pots of Oban. I reserve them for when I drive there.

 

[Ceejay]

Speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, I'd just like somewhere reasonably priced and secure to park my RIB, when I pop over to Oban, from my island home.
At present this is not an option.
The same need exists also for all types of leisure craft looking to step ashore in the town centre for a short stay.
CJ

 

[Quandary]

I started this thread hoping to provoke some thought about the possible reasons why the marina might be refused. Having been involved as a 'consultant' in numerous controversial projects including some marina (shoreside) developments, it is important if you want to win an argument to try to establish where your opposition is coming from and what motivates them.
My conclusion from the debate is that the yachting community is ill equipped to promote what it considers its best interest, just saying 'go for it' or 'we can address that issue later' is not the way to win planning approval. The arguments in favour have to be as strong and comprehensive as those from the opposition. 'Yachting Life' carried reports on the last failure which was so blinkered and one sided that if I had been an ordinary citizen of Oban I would have been offended by the text. It will not have endeared us to the Council either, very few of us respond well to being called stupid.
A possible outcome here is that approval could be granted but that the funding may not be available to make it work, the debates about this and the earlier proposals indicate that not even all the traders are in favour and a divided community will have much more trouble generating financial support. So we could have a limbo situation for years which will make much needed investment in the now locally owned Kerrera marina (purchased out of liquidation last year by a caravan site operator) less likely. It is possible that a refusal might even be a better outcome.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... My conclusion from the debate is that the yachting community is ill equipped to promote what it considers its best interest .....

Wow! Tell me what to do Quandary as I and my fellow sailors are ill equipped.

 

[Quandary]

Wow! Tell me what to do Quandary as I and my fellow sailors are ill equipped.

Well, perhaps you could read all of the sentence, or even a bit more of the post!

 

[Blueboatman]

Ah just back from a wee sail. Which makes one curiously thirsty. Which made I have a google for real ale at Oban..aside from an actual brewery ( Obam Bay brewery), there appear to be at least a couple of real ale pubs( not hotels)...
So perhaps I could be pursuaded to spend £30 a visit
So long as one wasn't clobbered for £40 to lie alongside a moving pontoon of course....
Sadly, Somehow I suspect the likes of I are not what the proposal is intending to attract

 

[webcraft]

Ah just back from a wee sail. Which makes one curiously thirsty. Which made I have a google for real ale at Oban..aside from an actual brewery ( Obam Bay brewery), there appear to be at least a couple of real ale pubs( not hotels)...
So perhaps I could be pursuaded to spend £30 a visit
So long as one wasn't clobbered for £40 to lie alongside a moving pontoon of course....
Sadly, Somehow I suspect the likes of I are not what the proposal is intending to attract

For yachties this will be a short-stay marina. I think the whole idea is that this will be a facility for everyone. Come alongside, do some shopping, stay a night and drink some real ale, have a meal or whatever, then head for the wilds. As well as yacht, trip boats will be able to use it, kayakers can launch, cruise liner tenders can berth there. Tobermory is the model, not Largs or Kip. It has worked in Tobermory, so it is hard to see why it could not work in Oban.

The negativity on YBW these days is pretty depressing - I can understand why so many have left.

- W

 

[Quandary]

Oban Bay do a very sweet dark ale called 'Skelpt Lug' (which you can buy at Kerrera Marina) not my favourite flavour but the name brings on such waves of nostalgia for childhood (my Dad believed in instant corporal punishment) that I always feel I have to try it again.

 

[webcraft]

. . . it is important if you want to win an argument to try to establish where your opposition is coming from and what motivates them . . .

. . . the yachting community is ill equipped to promote what it considers its best interest

It is not the 'yachting community ' that is promoting this, it is primarily a group of Oban business people. All I suggested is that we could show some support. The business case is being made by business people, we don't need to do that.

- W

 

[Quandary]

It is not the 'yachting community ' that is promoting this, it is primarily a group of Oban business people. All I suggested is that we could show some support. The business case is being made by business people, we don't need to do that.

- W

Of course you are promoting it, in contributions to three threads on here, the first of which was directly soliciting support for the proposal. If you want to help them it is not enough just to say you like it, you need to say why, and it is better if your reasons are persuasive. The Planners need to read all submissions and they are likely to take account of well argued cases, they do count numbers for and against but that is not all there is to it.

 

[webcraft]

Of course you are promoting it, in contributions to three threads on here, the first of which was directly soliciting support for the proposal. If you want to help them it is not enough just to say you like it, you need to say why, and it is better if your reasons are persuasive. The Planners need to read all submissions and they are likely to take account of well argued cases, they do count numbers for and against but that is not all there is to it.

You saying my case isn't well argued? You lookin' at ma pint? I can't be bothered with this any more. Scuttlebutt is now just an extension of the Lounge.

- W