Is sailing an exclusive sport?

[timbartlett]

Well the thing is aspirations have changed people used to sail all over the place in smaller cruisers content with a depth sounder, a few old charts , probably not updated, a couple of changes of clothes and a passport

I don't disagree with you -- though I think perhaps you are making rather a sweeping generalisation. Plenty of people still go camping under canvas in the UK, rather than to resort hotels in the Med, and some people who could afford to go on Cruiseliners in the tropics choose, instead, to go dog-sledding in Alaska or motorcycling across India. But I wonder whether you have misunderstood me.

I think there may be a perception amongst those who might come into sailing that they "need" a big boat, because they simply don't see likes of Corribees, Hurley 22s, Centaurs, Sadler 25s and Contessa 26s.

Similarly there is a perception that all dinghies are fibreglass ironingboards with wings and huge coloured sails that fall over a lot -- rather than safe, stable boats like the GP14 that you could build from a few sheets of plywood or a Bell woodworking kit, and that you could then take the family (+dog) picknicking in.

If someone with those perceptions sees a wooden GP14 for sale for <£500 "in need of attention", of course they are going to be wary: they may well believe that it's a restoration project for an enthusiast, rather than a boat that a novice can go sailing in. Similarly, if they are sold the idea that a 35 footer is a good starter boat, and is OK for pottering around the Solent, what are they likely to make of a 21 foot Corribee? We know that Corribees have crossed oceans and sailed round Britain -- but we aren't the ones who need to be persuaded!

And in ten years time, the supply of GP14s, Graduates, Mirrors, Herons, Corribees, Hurleys, etc is going to be drying up. I don't see many to replace them.

 

[Kawasaki]

And in ten years time, the supply of GP14s, Graduates, Mirrors, Herons, Corribees, Hurleys, etc is going to be drying up. I don't see many to replace them.[/QUOTE]

That maybe Tim.

However, there was a recent Post on here about how We can dispose of unwanted Fibre Glass boats.

I know 'F' all about saily things, I admit.
Do we need to make 'New Uns' to go faster or summat?

If not. why is the job going to go 'pear shaped' in ten years time>

Just interested
Thats all
Cheers
K
,

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Cut your cloth accordingly. If you want a nice car, a nice house AND a nice boat, then no, it's not accessible unless you're loaded.

But being "loaded" doesnt happen magically - its what you get when you work hard and practise a degree of self denial to build up the "load". Thats probably sounds pious but it isnt meant that way. The concept of working, saving and waiting seems to have disappeared these days - people "want it and and want it now" ( guess which group )

 

[moondancer]

I you are a man of reasonable means then you wouldn't worry about the 100 pounds per annum of dead money for keeping your dinghy. All depends what you mean by reasonable means and comfortble lifetstyle.

Depending where you want to keep your boat you need an amount of spare disposable income.

 

[Blueboatman]

Exclusive ? Yes and no . Some people buy into the perceived exclusivity, blue ensigns and Royal clubs and stuff, some people like the privacy, some like the camaraderie.

Expensive ? Y+N. Who does the work? Hamble marina or anchored off some Pacific isle ?

Hopeless Investment ? Y+N If it gets you through another month working for Grib, Greed and Maxit without a premature heart attack..Then again If you must buy a brand new boat every 3 years..

Good idea ? The more you use the boat, the better it and you get (probably)..

And as Chay Blythe ( amongst others) said memorably..and I paraphrase very loosely.. ''It's no feckin good lying on your death bed wondering 'What if I had......''.

Just get on with it, exclusive or not.

 

[Searush]

I think it's pretty exclusive in that there aren't too many working class/poor kids introduced to it at an early age and later in life they aren't drawn to it because of it's image as a rich man's pastime, not realising it can be done cheaply. (snip)

Tosh. Check your local scout groups. The chances are that there is a troop of Sea Scouts or Sea Cadets in your area. Many schools have links to local activity centres where a fleet of dinghies is available. My grand-daughter & her pals - from a school in an urban catchment of mostly council & victorian terrace homes went to Cannock Outdoor centre for a week's canoeing & sailing. PGL (and others less well known) still offer activity weeks & weekends away from parents to go sailing & canoeing. There are lots of opportunities for the impoverished to try sailing - and often subsidised..

I come from a low pay background & first got "afloat" in a lorry inner tube, progressed to a canoe, then sea scouts & finally bought a cheap dinghy when I got a job. I chartered with a young family, big mortgage & small wages & finally bought a cheap old boat which I kept on self-laid moorings & used for family holidays. ANYONE can do it - if the motivation is there. Just don't expect it to be easy or fall in your lap & don't expect to start with top end sailing in a new boat of your own in a marina in a premium sailing area.

My maths worked out that it was cheaper to own my own boat than charter 2 weeks a year, therefore, provided I used the boat more than 2 weeks I was doing the cost effective thing.

 

[fergie_mac66]

I don't disagree with you -- though I think perhaps you are making rather a sweeping generalisation. Plenty of people still go camping under canvas in the UK, rather than to resort hotels in the Med, and some people who could afford to go on Cruiseliners in the tropics choose, instead, to go dog-sledding in Alaska or motorcycling across India. But I wonder whether you have misunderstood me.

I think there may be a perception amongst those who might come into sailing that they "need" a big boat, because they simply don't see likes of Corribees, Hurley 22s, Centaurs, Sadler 25s and Contessa 26s.

Similarly there is a perception that all dinghies are fibreglass ironingboards with wings and huge coloured sails that fall over a lot -- rather than safe, stable boats like the GP14 that you could build from a few sheets of plywood or a Bell woodworking kit, and that you could then take the family (+dog) picknicking in.

If someone with those perceptions sees a wooden GP14 for sale for <£500 "in need of attention", of course they are going to be wary: they may well believe that it's a restoration project for an enthusiast, rather than a boat that a novice can go sailing in. Similarly, if they are sold the idea that a 35 footer is a good starter boat, and is OK for pottering around the Solent, what are they likely to make of a 21 foot Corribee? We know that Corribees have crossed oceans and sailed round Britain -- but we aren't the ones who need to be persuaded!

And in ten years time, the supply of GP14s, Graduates, Mirrors, Herons, Corribees, Hurleys, etc is going to be drying up. I don't see many to replace them.

I think that perception is being promoted by magazines including YM also skills are being lost schools doing CDT instead of properly teaching woodwork and metalworking skills so average joe doesn't have the skills to repair gp14 Wayfarers etc . Threaddrift sorry . When I was at school at 14 I was given free run of in metalwork shop of shaping machines ,milling machines and I was allowed to use a forge and a small smelter for casting aluminium and bronze. On the woodwork side I was using a jointer with rebating facility and ,god forbid, a small spindle molder,H&S would close a tech' school down like that now.

Small safe pocket cruisers and cruising dingys have fallen foul of H&S legislation aswell with classification as only suitable for estuary use.

The extreme small racing machines which without a doubt weren't safe long distance sea boats have a lot of responsibility for those classifications , The layman out there saw them on their beam ends and said small is not safe, not that design is not safe.
The money spent on racing is also a factor.

That maybe Tim.

However, there was a recent Post on here about how We can dispose of unwanted Fibre Glass boats.

I know 'F' all about saily things, I admit.
Do we need to make 'New Uns' to go faster or summat?

If not. why is the job going to go 'pear shaped' in ten years time>

Just interested
Thats all
Cheers
K
,

The disposal of old boats, fiberglas and wood is a crime they should be rounded up a given to people to sharpen their diy skills and also to give the great unwashed out there, some aspirations

Hmm this post is getting too long and the alzheimers is causing me to forget what i was saying !!

 

[Slow_boat]

I don't think sailing is exclusive in that everyone is welcomed and you don't have to be rich to do it. I don't regret that it has that reputation, though.

Motorboating is far more expensive but maybe because of the perception that it's like driving a car is seen as less exclusive. Everyone thinks they have the ability to handle a power boat but not a sailing boat.

I disagree with photodog, too. I live a hundred miles from my boat and I don't earn a furtune but still manage to sail. Okay, I'm pretty good at DIY but that's one of lifes skills anyone can learn.

BTW, I went to school and was brought up in Portsea, which was then the armpit of Portsmouth. You don't get much more of a deprived area than that was.

There are many more expensive pastimes than sailing (I still say that one of the elements of sport is that it must be competative. I don't compete because I don't feel the need to prove anything)

More expensive pastimes;

Anything with an engine. My boat cost about the same as some people pay for a car but running costs are a fraction. I sold a scooter to buy my first boat and a motorbike to buy the second. Downsized the house for the third and will again for the fourth.

Horses. Hay-burners are much more expensive to run.

Taking the family to a football match. For the price of taking two kids for an afternoon spectating, I can take them for a week on the boat.

Eating out once a week or pub twice a week. Costs more than I pay for my boat per week.

 

[V1701]

Tosh. Check your local scout groups. The chances are that there is a troop of Sea Scouts or Sea Cadets in your area. Many schools have links to local activity centres where a fleet of dinghies is available. My grand-daughter & her pals - from a school in an urban catchment of mostly council & victorian terrace homes went to Cannock Outdoor centre for a week's canoeing & sailing. PGL (and others less well known) still offer activity weeks & weekends away from parents to go sailing & canoeing. There are lots of opportunities for the impoverished to try sailing - and often subsidised..

I come from a low pay background & first got "afloat" in a lorry inner tube, progressed to a canoe, then sea scouts & finally bought a cheap dinghy when I got a job. I chartered with a young family, big mortgage & small wages & finally bought a cheap old boat which I kept on self-laid moorings & used for family holidays. ANYONE can do it - if the motivation is there. Just don't expect it to be easy or fall in your lap & don't expect to start with top end sailing in a new boat of your own in a marina in a premium sailing area.

My maths worked out that it was cheaper to own my own boat than charter 2 weeks a year, therefore, provided I used the boat more than 2 weeks I was doing the cost effective thing.

Take your points entirely and it's great that there are opportunities. I grew up not far from your neck of the woods actually (Stoke), which of course is miles away from the sea, though very close to Rudyard Lake, where we'd fish, but never got into sailing. We did regularly float down the Trent in an old tractor inner tube. I was just past 40 before I even set foot on a yacht, and have just bought my first after getting into it crewing for a few different boats in S E Asia, which I did after work teaching diving in Thailand ran out. I'll be living aboard from Spring so will have no rent/mortgage to pay, and that's how I can afford it. Work will be part time, so lots of time for sailing and I can't wait!

 

[timbartlett]

However, there was a recent Post on here about how We can dispose of unwanted Fibre Glass boats.

It is true that it is very difficult to dispose of the plastic shell of a boat (other than by burning it!) but the hull is one of the cheapest and simplest parts of a boat. And even the hull can degrade or be damaged to the point at which it is beyond economic repair.

Do we need to make 'New Uns' to go faster or summat?
If not. why is the job going to go 'pear shaped' in ten years time>

Sweeping generalisation coming up ... but generally new boats are faster than old ones: they are lighter, stiffer, and have more highly developed rigs and sails. Rigs and sails can be replaced, but they represent a very significant cost.
The most significant factor, though, is that most new small boats are far more "advanced" designs -- generally aimed at providing "exciting" entertainment for young adults rather than more sedate pleasures for families.
As to whether we "need" speed, I would suggest that we don't: a group of equally matched slow boats can have better racing than a disparate fleet of fast ones.

My contention is that there are very few small boats being built now that will be suitable for novices in ten years time. By 2020, I reckon the second-hand market will consist of:-
(a) big boats (that will be expensive to keep even if they are relatively cheap to buy)
(b) pensioned-off high-tech, high-performance boats (that won't be suitable for novices, the elderly, or families) and
(c) basket cases, between thirty and fifty years old, that require experience, expertise and expenditure to repair.

 

[photodog]

Most peeps seem to be equating the cost of sailing... with the concept of "Exclusivity"...

Whilst the cost is one aspect... in fact if it was just about cost then it would no really be a "Exclusive" sport.... As anyone who had enough money... could participate...

It would be expensive.. but not nessecarly exclusive.

What really makes something exclusive are the social and cultural boundaries which not only discourage, but I would argue in many cases prevent, widescale partcipation or ability to partcipate amongst identifiable minority groups, the working class, and those from a deprived background or a low standard of living.

These cultural and social boundaries are deepseated within the sport, and exist at the very highest levels.

These boundaries do not prevent partcipation at some level by any of the groups described above... but they do preclude participation at the most prestigous and entrenched leadership levels of the sport.

The sport is not unlike banking. It is easy to become involved in the industry, and even move into a fairly senior trading role, but can we actually say that the very highest levels of the banking industry are open to all.. could the Governor of the bank of england be someone who was educated at a city center highschool, and got his degree from Trent Uni?? Could he be of Pakistani origin? or a Muslim?? or Black?

I think not.

Its easy to participate in sailing at a lower level... but if you want to join, say, the Royal Dart Yacht club.... you need to have 2 people who are already in the club recommend you...

Now that is one powerfull social barrier... if your not already part of the social group... you are not going to get in. Certainly at the very least, you are not going to think that you can get in.

This gets worse the higher that you get.... How does one become a member of the RYS??


The social and cultural barriers that exist at the highest levels of our "sport" place barrier at all levels... Whilst I can afford to participate at a certain level... as a Bavaria owner, Photographer, and Canadian, I do not feel that I could be a member of something like the RPCYC or even the RDYC...

If I feel like that... why do we think that a black single mum living in St Anns would feel able to even enter Plymouth Yacht Haven?

So, its not the costs of the sport that alone make it exclusive... though it is a factor.... its really the social barriers... Until we can honestly say that a Black comprehensive educated innercity woman sailing a homebuilt mirror could be the head of the RYA, or the Commodore of the RYS... until opportunity exists equaly at all levels of the sport... then it will not truly be a inclusive sport.

If you want to find out if this is a exclusive sport... you need to poll people who DONT participate.... those of us who do participate here in the UK are often blinded by the uniqely British shame of being part of a elite or of being successful... So we dont want to admit that we are part of a elite, or we deny the truth that we are....

Social and Cultural barriers are very much about perception... exclusivity is often a con supported by a barrier which is based upon a falsehood. There is no real physical reason that more people from a wider background could not participate.. but the instutions of sailing prop up the invisible and false barrier... nowere do I see instutions working to bring those barriers down.

"The Royal Yachting Association"..... the very title talks of the ultimate in exclusivity.


Renaming it "Sailing UK" would be a start.

 

[Searush]

Some pretty silly ideas in there Photodog. Of course someone who is poorly educated cannot run a bank or a major sporting organisation. The competition for such jobs is huge, as are the rewards, one needs considerable skill, experience & ability to get such a job.

The appointments have little to do with colour, race or sex - but it is true that disadvantaged groups stand little chance of gaining that level of skill & experience - even if they have the ability.

We are starting to see major sporting celebreties from ethnic minorities progressing into admin. Sooner or later someone will make it to the top. Interestingly, there are few black ladies, or men, in competitive sailing, but I suspect that may be a cost issue. Even dinghy racing at the higher levels is excruciatingly costly. There is also the "Hooray Henry" stereo type for professional racing crew - but there are also many working class people in there too (but not many black or asian)

 

[timbartlett]

"The Royal Yachting Association"..... the very title talks of the ultimate in exclusivity. Renaming it "Sailing UK" would be a start.

Aaaarghh!! Not again!!!

Do you believe that you are not allowed to use the Royal Mail? Do you think ordinary folk are banned from pubs called the Royal Standard, Royal Oak. Do any ordinary people live or work at Park Royal? Does the RNLI only rescue posh people? Is the Royal British Legion exclusive? Can you only get home insurance from Royal Insurance if you live in a palace? Does the RSPCA only protect Corgis?

Renaming it Sailing UK would make it sound like some kind of government "initiative" !

 

[Searush]

Isn't Sailing UK a freebie magazine for marine adverts?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Most peeps seem to be equating the cost of sailing... with the concept of "Exclusivity"...

Whilst the cost is one aspect... in fact if it was just about cost then it would no really be a "Exclusive" sport.... As anyone who had enough money... could participate...

It would be expensive.. but not nessecarly exclusive.

What really makes something exclusive are the social and cultural boundaries which not only discourage, but I would argue in many cases prevent, widescale partcipation or ability to partcipate amongst identifiable minority groups, the working class, and those from a deprived background or a low standard of living.

These cultural and social boundaries are deepseated within the sport, and exist at the very highest levels.

These boundaries do not prevent partcipation at some level by any of the groups described above... but they do preclude participation at the most prestigous and entrenched leadership levels of the sport.

The sport is not unlike banking. It is easy to become involved in the industry, and even move into a fairly senior trading role, but can we actually say that the very highest levels of the banking industry are open to all.. could the Governor of the bank of england be someone who was educated at a city center highschool, and got his degree from Trent Uni?? Could he be of Pakistani origin? or a Muslim?? or Black?

I think not.

Its easy to participate in sailing at a lower level... but if you want to join, say, the Royal Dart Yacht club.... you need to have 2 people who are already in the club recommend you...

Now that is one powerfull social barrier... if your not already part of the social group... you are not going to get in. Certainly at the very least, you are not going to think that you can get in.

This gets worse the higher that you get.... How does one become a member of the RYS??


The social and cultural barriers that exist at the highest levels of our "sport" place barrier at all levels... Whilst I can afford to participate at a certain level... as a Bavaria owner, Photographer, and Canadian, I do not feel that I could be a member of something like the RPCYC or even the RDYC...

If I feel like that... why do we think that a black single mum living in St Anns would feel able to even enter Plymouth Yacht Haven?

So, its not the costs of the sport that alone make it exclusive... though it is a factor.... its really the social barriers... Until we can honestly say that a Black comprehensive educated innercity woman sailing a homebuilt mirror could be the head of the RYA, or the Commodore of the RYS... until opportunity exists equaly at all levels of the sport... then it will not truly be a inclusive sport.

If you want to find out if this is a exclusive sport... you need to poll people who DONT participate.... those of us who do participate here in the UK are often blinded by the uniqely British shame of being part of a elite or of being successful... So we dont want to admit that we are part of a elite, or we deny the truth that we are....

Social and Cultural barriers are very much about perception... exclusivity is often a con supported by a barrier which is based upon a falsehood. There is no real physical reason that more people from a wider background could not participate.. but the instutions of sailing prop up the invisible and false barrier... nowere do I see instutions working to bring those barriers down.

"The Royal Yachting Association"..... the very title talks of the ultimate in exclusivity.


Renaming it "Sailing UK" would be a start.

It's a real pleasure Photodog to come across a good old fashioned Poly lecturer type socialist. It's good that someone has utopian ideas.

 

[photodog]

Some pretty silly ideas in there Photodog.

Well I agree that some of this may sound silly.. but actually its about social and cultural capitol, and how individuals who are not part of a prescriptive group, are often kept excluded because they lack the social or cultural capitol to move into the group... this lack of capitol is the biggest hurdle for social mobility in the UK... even bigger than economic factors.

Everyone here is familiar with the fact that under labour Social Mobility has gotten worse.... I believe that the main reason for this is that Labours focus on economic factors to overcome social mobility problems has largley ignored cultural and social capitol as influences, despite Stephen Aldridges 2001 paper for the cabinet that identified these as crucial factors in social mobility..

http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/cabinetoffice/strategy/assets/socialmobility.pdf (See here)

So, we see minority groups becoming more wealthy... but not actually becoming more socially mobile... there relative social mobility has not changed.

So, we see some member of traditionally disadvantaged groups entering sailing, but in reality they still lack the cultural capitol to progress to the highest levels of the sport... even if they have the economic ability to do so.

Now of course that is largley down to my opinion... but as a outsider myself, I think that I may be in a better position to see those barriers.... those who have no barriers will have little ability to see those that exist for others.

SO; If we want to get more people involved in sailing... its not so much the money thing , its the culture.

 

[photodog]

It's a real pleasure Photodog to come across a good old fashioned Poly lecturer type socialist. It's good that someone has utopian ideas.

Dont get me wrong!

Dont forget my earlier post on this...

CAN ANYONE HERE HONESTLY SAY THEY WOULD LIKE IT ANY OTHER WAY?

hmmm... not I. I love the exclusive nature of sailing. If I wanted to do something inclusive... I would go down to the high street on a saturday and shop at TKMax... why would I want EVEN MORE of the hoi poloi polluting my favorite anchorage, or running up and down my pontoon.

When people ask what I do for fun... i am proud of the fact that I have some skills that most people consider pretty impressive and scary...

When that little gate on the marina Swishes shut behind me... I am getting away from the scrotes and the crowds and shouty and dirty and common oiks.

So, Exclusive??? YES! and THANK GOD!



I am not really keen on the sport being inclusive in a football kinda way...

But, I dont think that the "Exclusive" nature of the sport is down to just the money.. there are far more powerfull cultural factors at play, which despite the great socialist experience that we have had for the past decade, have not been eroded.

 

[Kawasaki]

Fergie, Tim.
Thanks for the replies/comments ref My old boats bit.

I have also being discussing the subject by PM, obviously with another Forumite!

Sailing may or may not be Exclusive
But PM's are

 

[jac]

For the first time ever i think i agree with photodog.

(When does the doctors open?)

Of course it depends on your definition of sailing. Sunsail et al have made a flotilla holiday very accessible but I don't tthink you can say that doing a flotilla once a year counts. It needs to be more often than that.

I think ability to get into sailing really relies on you falling into 1 of 2 categories

1) The knowledge rich.
By this I mean you either know someone who sails or you live in the area so can join clubs as a social member and go a drink etc there - get yourself known and get out. This also includes those who learned through the forces etc and in many cases can tide you over until you can save the cash and become

2) The cash rich
Buy a new(ish) boat, do the courses, pay the hamble prices.

It always used to be 1) that got you into sailing. Now it's mainly 2


Financially it is a big issues - We are presently between boats as we have two children ( 4 & 2) that we have to have in private nursery to allow us to work. My wife and I both earn above average incomes, have older cars but as a result of childcare ( and the mortgage on a house big enough for a family) we can't afford a boat big enough for all of us. I could get a small dinghy but small dinghies not really suitable for 4.

I accept that there are places that allow you to keep a boat for £2.50 and a bag of chips a decade but where are they? Mostly they are clubs or known only to locals etc. so fall into the first category. When has YM ever done a feature on how to more your boat cheaply? Cheap places tend to have waiting lists for obvious reasons so coming into the sport means you need to pay for a place that will probably be more expensive.

However - even ignoring the cost of buying / running - relaible access to a boat is the problem .The clubs are the issue I think. Even when owning a boat, my wife and I never joined a club. Most clubs seem to need you to be proposed at least - if you don't know them already how do you get proposed? Club members also seem to be older so again ( taking the potential recruits in the 30 / young 40 something group) - seem to be a different generation to likely new members and probably quite intimidating for new members to walk into and brazenly ask for membership and for someone to take them out ( and not very british)

So without access to clubs how can you go sailing regulalry without a boat? Even with access you will probably have to go on your own - how many skippers want to take new / inexperienced couples / families with them? How many cruisers want to take anyone with them. I can see a place for new young race crews but no way in to the cruising world.

The solution (IMHO) is for the RYA and clubs to be more proactive in targetting and recruiting new members and not relying on friends of existing members. Until this happens I think sailing will be the preserve of those who are either already in the know or who have deep pockets

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Sailing isn't exclusive...

but Yachting is. And by definition a yacht is a boat over 40' in length, which will cost some cash. But all the thousands of dinghies being sailed in the UK are all developing sailors, and giving people huge amounts of fun. And trailer sailors, like MacGregor 26s and others are providing coastal cruising to people that can't even afford marinas or even moorings. And if you are solidly middle class, you can probably afford a used Sadler 32, or a Contessa 32, or similar. These boats will cost less than a compact exec car, and hold their value much better - they have already depreciated about as far as they are going to!

My partner and I bought a used Nicholson 32, put some money into her, and still ended up less than £30k spent. Not cheap, but not real expensive either. We drive a 10 year old VW Lupo as compensation, and other plans (like holidays and extending the house into the loft) got put on hold for a few years until we recover from her purchase. We eat out rarely, and if our friends go out we will eat home and then go out to join them for a drink after. We buy discount cuts of meats then freeze them. We are simply careful with our money - and we do it in the name of the boat and the lifestyle she affords us, and the really, really nice people that we get to meet while sailing.

So I will say "ibid" to all those above that said its all about choices...I think what makes sailing exclusive is NOT the price, but the commitment it requires - of money yes, but also time, training, and practice. Basically it is a skilled activity, with a large body of occult knowledge, and it requires practice to master it - even with bowthrusters.

Thankfully that requirement of commitment will probably prevent sailing from ever becoming like football socially...a bunch of yobs on white plastic blobs you could say! And I think that no amount of re-branding the RYA can change that. When all is said and done, sailing is still not without its risks, and you have a huge responsibility when you have a boat in your hands. Trying to make it socially equitable should never be allowed to overshadow that fact.