Irrational Fear of In-Mast Furling?

[jac]

"Easy and unreliable"? Whatever that means.
I find that I have a lot of control over the sail shape, simply by adjusting the outhaul tension. Certainly with it being loose-footed, the foot of the sail is a lot more efficient than one that is attached along the boom. So I'll just keep on wafting along, thank you.

Lol

Makes more sense when you take the un off!!!

 

[davidlhill]

Interesting comments from all. Overall impression is that those that have had a bad experience won't go near them, whilst many swear by well maintained versions.

Some one wrote early on that in-mast furling should just be another factor when comparing possible boats, which I agree. It's just that that factor, for me, probably has a higher priority than, say, "newly laid teak decks" for example.

Thanks all

David

 

[jac]

It's just that that factor to meprobably has a higher priority than, say, "newly laid tak decks" for example.

Thanks all

David

Although "Newly laid Teak Decks" suggests that you won't face a bill of £30k for replacement anytime soon!!!

 

[capnsensible]

I think I must "waft along" too!

A recent waft. A couple of months ago I crossed the Caribbean Sea from Antigua to Panama. 1260 miles of wafting in seven days. Best days run 192. Not only did the in mast main work fine, but it was attatched to a Bavaria! With no skeg. And a sail drive!!

 

[TangaraToo]

A recent waft. A couple of months ago I crossed the Caribbean Sea from Antigua to Panama. 1260 miles of wafting in seven days. Best days run 192. Not only did the in mast main work fine, but it was attatched to a Bavaria! With no skeg. And a sail drive!!

You like living on the edge then

 

[davidlhill]

Although "Newly laid Teak Decks" suggests that you won't face a bill of £30k for replacement anytime soon!!!

A fair point well made!

Actually, I'd probably be put off a teak deck for that reason. The Vancouver 36 mentioned in the Atlantic crossing thread has the sork of deck I'd prefer. Looks great and doesn't break the bank.

David

 

[jac]

A fair point well made!

Actually, I'd probably be put off a teak deck for that reason. The Vancouver 36 mentioned in the Atlantic crossing thread has the sork of deck I'd prefer. Looks great and doesn't break the bank.

David

Indeed - also on the list of "things the next boat won't have!"

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Yes, the cost of refurb of the shagged teak decks was the deal breaker on several used boats I looked at. £30k ballpark, obviously seller didn't want to reduce to match and I hadn't the enthusiasm to invest that money... new boat has GRP non slip.

 

[GrahamM376]

A recent waft. A couple of months ago I crossed the Caribbean Sea from Antigua to Panama. 1260 miles of wafting in seven days. Best days run 192. Not only did the in mast main work fine, but it was attatched to a Bavaria! With no skeg. And a sail drive!!

Chris, Times must be hard if you're having to slum it these days Keep safe. G.

 

[GrahamM376]

Yes, the cost of refurb of the shagged teak decks was the deal breaker on several used boats I looked at. £30k ballpark, obviously seller didn't want to reduce to match and I hadn't the enthusiasm to invest that money... new boat has GRP non slip.

We nearly bought a HR until we got the quote for deck refurb. As far as in mast furling goes, bad news always travels faster than good. I've seen 3 boats with it jammed, one of whom had to cut the sail off. Others say they have had problems but "some" admit they caused it themselves by not keeping tension on when furling. OTOH, I've met far more people who wouldn't have anything else and it's standard fit on blue water boats such as HR and AMEL. .

 

[oldbat]

I find a good glass of wine helps me to understand the winch manual..........

 

[KellysEye]

The problem with in mast furling is the sail has to be flat to fit the slot in the mast so it has less power than a curved sail as we found with the Benetteau 50 we chartered for Antigua Sailing Week. Were were notably slower upwind than other boats in our class who had ordinary mains. To cap it all in one race we furled it and it jammed. So you know what my advice would be about having it.

 

[NormanS]

The problem with in mast furling is the sail has to be flat to fit the slot in the mast so it has less power than a curved sail as we found with the Benetteau 50 we chartered for Antigua Sailing Week. Were were notably slower upwind than other boats in our class who had ordinary mains. To cap it all in one race we furled it and it jammed. So you know what my advice would be about having it.

Is that flat like every furling Genoa?

 

[Saguday]

Our IP370 has inmast furling, as indeed al IP's do as standard. I wouldn't replace it with standard slab reefing, which we had on our previous boat. We haven't had any problems with it, touchwood, the only thing we noticed after 10 years or so was that the sail appeared to be twisting as it furled, which caused a dlight bunching up which made it difficult to haul in. After poking around a bit we found that the 3 bolts on the lower end which 'pull' the whole thing down onto the bearing had worked loose a bit. We tightened them all up and it was all fine again.

I know some owners (a very small number) have put slab reefing in but it's not common. Like HR and Malo and the others plenty have been round the world with no problems. I was told of one instance where a main on an IP was reefed in downwind in a near hurricane off Florida - the technique seemed to involve lots of outhaul tension and judicious use of the winch to furl, a practice normally frowned upon of course. Rounding up, apparently, wasn't considered an option. One of those "should have done it sooner" experiences I guess.

IP masts are built like brick outhouses and have lots of internal volume. Most of the problems I've heard with inmast systems have been older ones retrofitted on 70's/80's masts. I would hope if the mast is built specifically for furling it should be ok.

 

[neil1967]

We have the original in mast furling fitted to our 30 year old Oyster 406. When we bought her 5 years ago, the furling was very stiff, but this was largely down to a lack of maintenance - the furling mechanism was a filthy ball of coagulated grease - and over sized out haul which created lots of friction. After a good clean it is much better. We have never had a problem furling it, but once had a problem unfurling it, which was my fault - for some reason I partly unfurled the sail when along side and then made a bit of a hash of furling it, which meant it jammed when next unfurled. It was quite easy to sort out though.

 

[dunedin]

Is that flat like every furling Genoa?

Very different - furling main needs to fit inside a confined space in a mast - furling genoa can take as much space as it needs. Hence any decent furling foresail will have a foam luff (or similar) to ensure good shape when reefed, as well as built in curve due to panel shape.. This is not practical with the limited space in mast for a mainsail.

And actually the sail shape issues are not just the flat sail, but the inability to apply Cunningham tension to adjust where the sail curvature is. In a wind the point of max depth tends to move back - if too far back then causes a lot of drag and heel rather than lift and speed. The Cunningham is a key control for upwind sailing, and avoiding unnecessary heel. Backstab and mast bend the other one, to open the leech (again a no no with in mast).
Hence why curly mains perform adequately (if sufficient sail area, i.e. boat design for it) downwind, but rarely effective upwind (expensive furling laminates with vertical battens coming closest to a cheap Dacron fully battened)

 

[rotrax]

Very different - furling main needs to fit inside a confined space in a mast - furling genoa can take as much space as it needs. Hence any decent furling foresail will have a foam luff (or similar) to ensure good shape when reefed, as well as built in curve due to panel shape.. This is not practical with the limited space in mast for a mainsail.

And actually the sail shape issues are not just the flat sail, but the inability to apply Cunningham tension to adjust where the sail curvature is. In a wind the point of max depth tends to move back - if too far back then causes a lot of drag and heel rather than lift and speed. The Cunningham is a key control for upwind sailing, and avoiding unnecessary heel. Backstab and mast bend the other one, to open the leech (again a no no with in mast).
Hence why curly mains perform adequately (if sufficient sail area, i.e. boat design for it) downwind, but rarely effective upwind (expensive furling laminates with vertical battens coming closest to a cheap Dacron fully battened)

I suspect it would be very difficult to bend the mast on our Island Packet SP Cruiser. As Saguday says, correctly, IP masts are very strong. Ours is a Charlston Spars mast, specifically built for in-mast furling/reefing and therefore has a dedicated extrusion with the sail area built in. This in itself gives the mast extra stiffness. Combined with the electricaly powered Lewmar 40 winch reefing/furling is a doddle. First Mate takes her off the wind while I reef or furl-we dont want to be arrested for cruelty to sails and running rigging.

Most vessels fitted with in mast mainsails these days are cruising yachts. Island Packet offered slab reefing as an optional extra-and at extra cost. Our previous IP, a 350 had this option. The single line reefing was a nightmare-too much friction. I converted to a rams horn and two line reefing, much better. But not as good as in mast for an elderly husband and wife crew.

In mast reefing/furling is a cruising feature. Specificaly for short handed crews.

Comparison with racing rigs is irrelevant. A young, fit crew with a lightweight modern cruising yacht would of course get substantialy better performance, especialy upwind, from a tuneable rig with laminate sails.

If I wanted to go fast by boat I would join the dark side-or go by ferry!

First mate and I are delighted with our in mast furling/reefing. No problems yet, but only 1500NM so far.

She sails better than we expected too!

Upwind performance is not relevant in our case either. IP's dont sail close to the wind. If the wind wont serve we have a stonking great turbodiesel Yanmar. With 1000 NM cruising range on a tank of fuel.

 

[eddystone]

Very different - furling main needs to fit inside a confined space in a mast - furling genoa can take as much space as it needs. Hence any decent furling foresail will have a foam luff (or similar) to ensure good shape when reefed, as well as built in curve due to panel shape.. This is not practical with the limited space in mast for a mainsail.

And actually the sail shape issues are not just the flat sail, but the inability to apply Cunningham tension to adjust where the sail curvature is. In a wind the point of max depth tends to move back - if too far back then causes a lot of drag and heel rather than lift and speed. The Cunningham is a key control for upwind sailing, and avoiding unnecessary heel. Backstab and mast bend the other one, to open the leech (again a no no with in mast).
Hence why curly mains perform adequately (if sufficient sail area, i.e. boat design for it) downwind, but rarely effective upwind (expensive furling laminates with vertical battens coming closest to a cheap Dacron fully battened)

Doubt if many cruising boats use a Cunningham.

 

[ip485]

On my 485 the main has full length battens in carbon and I can get a very good shape, albeit I accept not as good were it a racing yacht. However, equally I dont want to be standing on the coach roof sorting out the reefing in miserable weather and I dont want to be going to wind any more that needs really must. If I did I would go race around the cans which I have always enjoyed. Cruising is a different life style, substantially different when time is not of the essence, which I appreciate is not always the case.

As I said earlier for the cruising couple or short handed team every sail handling assistance is worth its weight in gold. I am very glad that everything furls, including the asymetric!

Mind, I am tempted by a conventional spinnaker, does a snuffer count?

 

[alant]

I've not sailed on many boats with in mast furling and yet I've had serious problems twice. Come to think of it that's probably 66% of all in mast furling boats that I've sailed have had problems... However; I am aware of plenty of folk who have had it for years and never had a problem. I suspect the difference is that on the boats I sailed on the owner didn't really get to grips with the system, know it's foibols and how to overcome them. Most systems have some sort of gremlin lurking. If you know how to fix it then it's fine.

Any designer who is designing a system that can't be unjammed obviously wants to be tarred and feathered but I suspect that they don't do so. So it would just be a case of getting to grips with your system and keeping it serviced. And to be fair, that applies to just about everything on a boat does it not?

Main problem IMO, is the attitude of the boom before furling.
Get it wrong & you get creases in the furl & subsequent jamming.