IRPCS v. RRS

[LouisBrowne]

Reading that case it is essentially about contract law and not about IRPCS vs Racing rules. And dont the IRPCS supercede it anyway? Unless there is another more recent and relevant case I would not be confident that sailing rules beat IRPCS which after all are statute law.

To put it another way, you might well be able to write a set of rules governing car races on the roads but those rules would not exempt you from the road traffic acts.

The point of the Satanita case is that, when you enter a yacht race, or any other sproting event, there is an implied contract between you and the other competitors that you will abide by the rules that govern that race or event. In the case of a yacht race, the rules that are to apply are defined in the Notice of Race, so it is those rules that apply when deciding liability between competitors. The courts have no more power to decide liability under different criteria than does a protest committee.

The link provided by Flaming suggests that the principle still holds good.

On the question of racing boat crews shouting at cruising boats to get out of the way, I think this is bad practice even if the racing boat has right of way under the colregs. Apart from being rude, shouting 'get out of the way' does not tell the cruising boat what they are being asked to do and the action taken by the cruiser in getting out of the way might do the racer more harm than good. It is much better if the racer specifies (politely) what it would like the cruiser to do, for example 'Please would you pass me to leeward' or 'Please would you bear away'.

 

[wotayottie]

I'm less sure that the situation is that black and white.

First reason is that the court judgements were made in civil cases and relate to contract matters and damages for breach of contract. Thats a whole lot different to criminal cases determined by statute law. Let me put it this way. Just suppose that you and your pal decided one night to have a race in your cars, and you agreed you would do this going the wrong way up the motorway. The motorway was empty but being pi**ed, you managed to hit each other. You might well argue as to who should pay for the repairs and if you had already agreed between you a set of rules for that race, those rules might prevail. But plod would still do you for driving on the wrong side of the road because you cannot agree between you to modify the Road Traffic Acts.

Second reason is that the judgement is in the US courts. Now the US is very picky about international law ( doesnt accept the ICC for example) so I wonder exactly what they have done to implement IRPCS in their waters. Is it incorporated into a US statute ? If not, if for example it is something like our old highway code used to be, then of course it can be set aside by agreement. I just dont know.

Nor am I enough of a lawyer to know how far US precedents apply in the UK. But I cannot see how a set of rules decided by a private club can cancel out statute made in parliament.

 

[lustyd]

Falmouth racing craft have right of way over non racing craft.
Harbour bye law 13.

Actually that's not what it says. The wording actually says that cruising boats should avoid getting in the way of racing boats, NOT that racing boats have right of way. IRPCS still applies.

 

[FWB]

Actually that's not what it says. The wording actually says that cruising boats should avoid getting in the way of racing boats, NOT that racing boats have right of way. IRPCS still applies.

Here is the wording, as far as I can see you have to keep out of the way of racing boats so I dont see how IRPCS applies...

Small vessels to avoid regattas, etc.
13. The master of a small vessel on the occasion of any boat race, regatta,
championship race, public procession or any other occasion when a number of small
vessels are assembled therein shall not permit his small vessel to pass therein so as to
obstruct, impede or interfere with the boat race, regatta, championship race or
procession, or endanger the safety of persons assembling in the harbour, or prevent
the maintenance of order therein, and the master of a small vessel shall observe the
directions of the Harbour Master or other persons authorised by the Commissioners to
superintend the execution of this bye-law

 

[wotayottie]

Excellent - just how it should be. So I can shout " get out of the way - I'm racing" to some YBW cruising type.

I look forward to next year.

 

[lustyd]

Here is the wording, as far as I can see you have to keep out of the way of racing boats so I dont see how IRPCS applies...

Small vessels to avoid regattas, etc.
13. The master of a small vessel on the occasion of any boat race, regatta,
championship race, public procession or any other occasion when a number of small
vessels are assembled therein shall not permit his small vessel to pass therein so as to
obstruct, impede or interfere with the boat race, regatta, championship race or
procession, or endanger the safety of persons assembling in the harbour, or prevent
the maintenance of order therein, and the master of a small vessel shall observe the
directions of the Harbour Master or other persons authorised by the Commissioners to
superintend the execution of this bye-law

Because IRPCS always applies. All this says is that boats should keep out of the way of racing boats. It doesn't alter what happens if a boat actually enters a collision situation with another - in that case the IRPCS would become valid. Whether the skipper of the small boat entering the race area is prosecuted for doing so or not is irrelevant as to the decision on who is at fault in a collision.
In addition to this, your use of the phrase "right of way" is misleading. The term stand on vessel is used as it does not imply a right to carry on regardless, blame free.

 

[lustyd]

Excellent - just how it should be. So I can shout " get out of the way - I'm racing" to some YBW cruising type.

I look forward to next year.

Nope, you'll still be prosecuted if you hit them and they were the stand on vessel.

 

[lw395]

Because IRPCS always applies. All this says is that boats should keep out of the way of racing boats. It doesn't alter what happens if a boat actually enters a collision situation with another - in that case the IRPCS would become valid. Whether the skipper of the small boat entering the race area is prosecuted for doing so or not is irrelevant as to the decision on who is at fault in a collision.
...

If there was actually a collision, both boats would be in the wrong.
But under those bylaws, the cruising boat that obstructs a racing boat has committed an offence as soon as the racing boat is forced to give way.
That probably puts the cruising skipper in a similar legal position to a certain swimmer in the uni boat race?

 

[lustyd]

If there was actually a collision, both boats would be in the wrong.
But under those bylaws, the cruising boat that obstructs a racing boat has committed an offence as soon as the racing boat is forced to give way.
That probably puts the cruising skipper in a similar legal position to a certain swimmer in the uni boat race?

As I said, the cruising sailor may be prosecuted under the bylaw. That, however, has no bearing whatsoever on the IRPCS which still apply in full to both boats.

 

[lw395]

As I said, the cruising sailor may be prosecuted under the bylaw. That, however, has no bearing whatsoever on the IRPCS which still apply in full to both boats.

Colregs Rule 1b?

 

[lustyd]

Colregs Rule 1b?

You'll have to explain what you mean, I don't follow. The wording of the colregs is not relevant here because this bylaw does not try to contradict or amend them in any way. The bylaw simply states that small boats should not enter a race area - this has nothing whatever to do with collisions.

 

[wotayottie]

As I said, the cruising sailor may be prosecuted under the bylaw. That, however, has no bearing whatsoever on the IRPCS which still apply in full to both boats.

I don't think that is correct. rule 1 (b) of colregs says " nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours rivers ....... "


Just out of interest, has anyone writing on this thread got an legal qualifications? I havent and I suspect most others havent. It's the blind leading the blind.

 

[lustyd]

I don't think that is correct. rule 1 (b) of colregs says " nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours rivers ....... "


Just out of interest, has anyone writing on this thread got an legal qualifications? I havent and I suspect most others havent. It's the blind leading the blind.

And as I said, nothing in the bylaw says anything about collisions and therefore the two are distinct and separate.

Just because a yacht is not allowed to enter a race area does not alter what happens when a risk of collision exists within that race area. Learner drivers are not allowed on motorways but that doesn't mean you're allowed to ram them just because they are in the wrong!
Just the implication that colleges don't apply because of this bylaw makes it a very dangerous and obviously confusing law which in my opinion should be removed. Clearly its intention is being regularly misunderstood by sailors.

Imagine you were a sailor coming in from half the world away, you have not studied Falmouth by laws because you didn't expect to stop there. Perhaps you sustained damage mid Atlantic. On approach you find yourself in a collision situation with another yacht. You may not even realise it is taking part in a race, but you do know the international rules for the prevention of collisions at sea which tell you that you are the stand on vessel. Do you still think it wise for this local law to change that globally recognised standard?

This law is like the tape at the side of a race track, designed to stop you wandering into a busy area for your own good. It doesn't stop your rights and obligations if you find yourself inside that area and certainly doesn't give any to those who are supposed to be in the area.

 

[FWB]

Colregs Rule 1b?

And as I said, nothing in the bylaw says anything about collisions and therefore the two are distinct and separate.

Just because a yacht is not allowed to enter a race area does not alter what happens when a risk of collision exists within that race area. Learner drivers are not allowed on motorways but that doesn't mean you're allowed to ram them just because they are in the wrong!
Just the implication that colleges don't apply because of this bylaw makes it a very dangerous and obviously confusing law which in my opinion should be removed. Clearly its intention is being regularly misunderstood by sailors.

Imagine you were a sailor coming in from half the world away, you have not studied Falmouth by laws because you didn't expect to stop there. Perhaps you sustained damage mid Atlantic. On approach you find yourself in a collision situation with another yacht. You may not even realise it is taking part in a race, but you do know the international rules for the prevention of collisions at sea which tell you that you are the stand on vessel. Do you still think it wise for this local law to change that globally recognised standard?

This law is like the tape at the side of a race track, designed to stop you wandering into a busy area for your own good. It doesn't stop your rights and obligations if you find yourself inside that area and certainly doesn't give any to those who are supposed to be in the area.

If you interfere with racing craft in Falmouth you may be prosecuted under the bye law. If you have a collision with a racing craft then you were not obeying the bye law.
Racing or not the Working Boat Skippers " Don't do Starboard!"

 

[lustyd]

If you interfere with racing craft in Falmouth you may be prosecuted under the bye law. If you have a collision with a racing craft then you were not obeying the bye law.
Racing or not the Working Boat Skippers " Don't do Starboard!"

Which is what I've said all along. If you collide with a racing craft you are guilty of breaking the bylaw.
Depending on the nature of the collision either you or the racing yacht or both is guilty of breaking the IRPCS. These are separate issues and one has no bearing on the other. After the collision, you will be prosecuted for the local breach but the collision investigation will proceed as if you were in open water and there was no race.

 

[FWB]

It's very simple.
In Falmouth you have to give way to boats which are racing.
Ignorance of the law - in this case a bye law - has never been a defence.

 

[lustyd]

It's very simple.
In Falmouth you have to give way to boats which are racing.
Ignorance of the law - in this case a bye law - has never been a defence.

As I have repeatedly said, the bylaw does not say that. It doesn't alter the IRPCS and does not give racing yachts right of way. It simply states that you must not enter the area of a race. If you are on starboard tack and someone on port tack hits you within the race area both parties will be prosecuted. One for breaking the bylaw, and the other for breaking IRPCS.

The fact that you are failing to grasp this means both the bylaw and education about IRPCS are failing. I'm glad that I rarely sail in Falmouth if there are others there like yourself.

 

[lustyd]

.
Ignorance of the law - in this case a bye law - has never been a defence.

Ignorance of IRPCS won't be a defence either. Make sure you give way even when racing in Falmouth if the rules say you must.

 

[FWB]

As I have repeatedly said, the bylaw does not say that. It doesn't alter the IRPCS and does not give racing yachts right of way. It simply states that you must not enter the area of a race. If you are on starboard tack and someone on port tack hits you within the race area both parties will be prosecuted. One for breaking the bylaw, and the other for breaking IRPCS.

The fact that you are failing to grasp this means both the bylaw and education about IRPCS are failing. I'm glad that I rarely sail in Falmouth if there are others there like yourself.

Best you stay out of the Falmouth Area.

 

[lustyd]

Best you stay out of the Falmouth Area.

I don't see why, I understand both laws. Obviously if you're planning to ram me while racing then ill try to avoid your boat.