IPS Ownership - My feedback

[jcwads]

for each drive. So 1000 quid on a typical two pod boat. And that is not counting any oil for the engines, generator, steering etc.

Yes, but the oil for the engines and genny are a drop in the ocean, I use Shell Rimula and it does an excellent job and is inexpensive. No fluids for steering as its not hydraulic - another amazing advantage I have now.

 

[westernman]

Yes, but the oil for the engines and genny are a drop in the ocean, I use Shell Rimula and it does an excellent job and is inexpensive. No fluids for steering as its not hydraulic - another amazing advantage I have now.

You are of course right. And if you do a reasonable number of hours per year, the fuel economy would potentially pay for that. It is also less than you are probably paying for a months berthing in summer and for insurance.

But it will forever hurt paying 1000 quid for an oil change each season.

 

[Portofino]

The way people are about finding alternatives, I’m surprised that there isn’t a well proven alternative oil by now.

View attachment 174173

A contractor probably doesn’t want come back / liability as the finger pointing is hassle , and possible resultant sums are enormous.So follows that well trodden path to to VP and passes on the expense.

A DIY er needs to think about residuals .You are probably right thought it’s only boggo API GL5SAE 75w 90 synthetic. So any Halfords eq ( they do sell it btw ) will do .

I have used Halfords gear oil same spec the 75/90 in my Ferrari and classic trial bikes .Trial bikes changed every 3 rd trial ( mud / water ingress issues ? ) ….there are brand specific packaging btw at X times the € .
Plus loadsa forums with no one reporting anything going “ BANG “ using a proprietary gear oil as long as it’s the same spec ,

The tiny pool of DIY er IPS owners isn’t large enough within the far greater contractor users for any social media traffic .
Plenty of IPS out there but majority pay a contractor who isn’t gonna tell if he deviates from VP “liquid gold “anyhow .

 

[Portofino]

Yes, but the oil for the engines and genny are a drop in the ocean, I use Shell Rimula and it does an excellent job and is inexpensive. No fluids for steering as its not hydraulic - another amazing advantage I have now.

I don’t get the lack of hydraulic steering oil as “ another amazing advantage “ it’s peanuts in the gen fluids equation .
Bit like forgive me using a car analogy mentioning washer fluid usage when comparing cars ….who wonders that ?

@

You are of course right. And if you do a reasonable number of hours per year, the fuel economy would potentially pay for that. It is also less than you are probably paying for a months berthing in summer and for insurance.

But it will forever hurt paying 1000 quid for an oil change each season.

Yea but the “18 knots “ and lift out decimates any perceived/ real fuel savings .
Or diver fees before a trip .

At the OP have you considered buying a mini dive kit ? Cleaning up the props yourself .

Irrc they are made of a funny metal that’s not good with proprietary prop AF technique …..not that normal props fair any better in Antibes mind .

 

[Momac]

IPS requires around 14 litres of synthetic oil per unit.
Assisted with an oil/ filter service last year on early IPS units with boat out of the water, very similar to doing an outdrive.

That is a lot of oil which means a drop of water ingress would be far less significant than the same drop of water in a sterndrive which takes 2.7 Litres in my case.
But does the oil really have to be changed annually and can't any fully synthetic gear oil of the correct grade be used ? A 20 L tub of FS gear oil can be purchased for about £90.
Plus I see the IPS has an oil filter which is not a huge expense at £15 so can't that be removed and inspected for any mayonnaise and if looking good a new filter fitted every other year ?
Obviously that's not according the Volvo Penta recommendations.

 

[oldgit]

IPS Draft.

looks to be no more than a similar shaft drive boat.

 

[oldgit]

£500/year for oil may be liquid gold, but it’s hardly a deal-breaker on a >£0.5m boat. If that’s the extent of the extra maintenance cost over other systems then IPS might well be worth a second look.

Agree on £500.000............. however it is now possible to buy IPS on a sub £150.000 boat.
Agree with everthing regards IPS handling characteristics.

• "I can understand the theory that those new to boating and who get an IPS boat could not skill up enough. If you learn off the joystick then it could land you in trouble. I find that the joystick is fine in benign conditions, but as soon as you have a bit of a gust, its not great for berthing, and if it kicks up a wind, its definitely not good. You have the option of high mode, but if you are wanting to get into a gap, its going to be kicking up water and rocking the boat."

Those "grooves" in the IPS prop shafts,
Dealers do not keep stocks of an IPS complete propshaft replacement kit in stock for no reason at all.
This of course is nothing to do with a reluctance of owners to pay for the proper servicing on these units.
Chatting to a service engineer from well known VP main dealer, popping in couple of new seals and kicking the can down the road is very popular.

 

[MarcN]

@jcwads
Thanks a lot for this orientation. That is especially helpful for me as I´m in the market for a ~50ft sportscruiser as a first own boat for next season (after 20 years of yearly charter). Med spec, 2 cabins, 2 en suite bathrooms, tender garage and an occasional berth in the saloon would be important to me, boat should be going to croatia. I have a sweet spot for the Princess V48, but I wouldn´t dismiss a Sunseeker San Remo or your Fairline 48 open, admittedly as they frequently list for significantly less money than the Princess (2013-2016 builds). However, all of them are IPS 600 powered and as you mentioned the fouling issue I´m now a little bit concerned that these are a bit underpowered. As an alternative I´m looking for an older boat (e.g. decent Fairline 47) and do a refit like setag in order to bring it to "modern" standards (technically and optics).

How is your experience this season with the velox? Don´t get me wrong, I´m not into top speed, mid 20s cruising speeds would suit my needs perfectly. To have a mid season lift out in order to achieve that would be a no go for me.

Unfortunately I cannot PM you, most likely because I´m just registered at this forum. I´ve seen Vesper being on sale and I would love to get in contact with you. Being german citizen and berthing the boat in croatia I would be most likely not a potential customer due to the VAT issue, but I would appreciate any experience made on that model.

Best regards from Munich,
Marc

 

[jcwads]

@jcwads
Thanks a lot for this orientation. That is especially helpful for me as I´m in the market for a ~50ft sportscruiser as a first own boat for next season (after 20 years of yearly charter). Med spec, 2 cabins, 2 en suite bathrooms, tender garage and an occasional berth in the saloon would be important to me, boat should be going to croatia. I have a sweet spot for the Princess V48, but I wouldn´t dismiss a Sunseeker San Remo or your Fairline 48 open, admittedly as they frequently list for significantly less money than the Princess (2013-2016 builds). However, all of them are IPS 600 powered and as you mentioned the fouling issue I´m now a little bit concerned that these are a bit underpowered. As an alternative I´m looking for an older boat (e.g. decent Fairline 47) and do a refit like setag in order to bring it to "modern" standards (technically and optics).

How is your experience this season with the velox? Don´t get me wrong, I´m not into top speed, mid 20s cruising speeds would suit my needs perfectly. To have a mid season lift out in order to achieve that would be a no go for me.

Unfortunately I cannot PM you, most likely because I´m just registered at this forum. I´ve seen Vesper being on sale and I would love to get in contact with you. Being german citizen and berthing the boat in croatia I would be most likely not a potential customer due to the VAT issue, but I would appreciate any experience made on that model.

Best regards from Munich,
Marc

Velox has been a complete success. No performance issues at all, up on the plane with no problems. It solved my issues and would recommend. I’ve been to Tunisia and back this season with no performance issues. Cruising at 23 knots very happily. More if you want to waste fuel.

 

[prinex]

If you are in for a bit of work this one NEPTUNUS 56 - Adriatic Mega Yachts is for sale in Croatia (it may be a bit bigger than what you want). 815HP Cats.

Backstory: It was offered to me for 200.000 6 months ago. I wanted to buy it but I was too late. Then 2 months ago I was contacted again (I already purchased the Azimut by that that time) - the deal did not went thru because the boat needed VAT paid, EU Certification papers etc and the first purchaser did not wanted to wait too long. There a a few US-Owned boats in Croatia, mostly from people that escaped during the war and settled in the US. They buy VAT-Free boats in Croatia and use them 1 month a year as holiday home, then dry dock. So they usually are very lightly used.

At 200K would have been a steal IMO (better than the Azimut 55 but maybe more diffcult to resell one day). The Azimut was also some years younger (but way more expensive).

 

[ari]

You are of course right. And if you do a reasonable number of hours per year, the fuel economy would potentially pay for that. It is also less than you are probably paying for a months berthing in summer and for insurance.

But it will forever hurt paying 1000 quid for an oil change each season.

Important to remember that the perceived efficiency/fuel economy benefits are calculated using a completely clean hull and drives, and as the OP attests in his first post, a bit of fouling and that efficiency goes right out of the window.

Fouling does drastically effect the performance of the boat.

I know that fouling affects all boats with all drive systems, but it does appear to disproportionately affect IPS boats - even a little slime on the props makes a big difference.

I suspect it would be interesting indeed to compare two otherwise identical boats, one with IPS and one with shafts, measure the fuel efficiency advantage of IPS when box fresh into the water, and then measure it again after even a month afloat. My suspicion is that any advantage would not only be lost, but that the IPS boat may well be less fuel efficient.

It's just a theory, but it's one based on experience.

 

[MarcN]

@jcwads thanks a lot for your feedback to velox, that sounds really promising. Also any further experience on the Targa 48 model would be much appreciated.

@prinex thanks for the hint, it looks good value for money indeed. But it is a very different style of boat, we are looking for a sportscruiser type rather than flybridge.

 

[ph321]

Important to remember that the perceived efficiency/fuel economy benefits are calculated using a completely clean hull and drives, and as the OP attests in his first post, a bit of fouling and that efficiency goes right out of the window.

Fouling does drastically effect the performance of the boat.

I know that fouling affects all boats with all drive systems, but it does appear to disproportionately affect IPS boats - even a little slime on the props makes a big difference.

I suspect it would be interesting indeed to compare two otherwise identical boats, one with IPS and one with shafts, measure the fuel efficiency advantage of IPS when box fresh into the water, and then measure it again after even a month afloat. My suspicion is that any advantage would not only be lost, but that the IPS boat may well be less fuel efficient.

It's just a theory, but it's one based on experience.

My opinion on the issue with the IPS drives suffering so much with fouling is that many manufacturers put the small IPS600s into boats that are really too big for them. As soon as there's any fouling, they're struggling to perform as the owner expects. My comparison based on two recent trips I've done here in Australia, Sydney to Whitsundays being about 1,000nm:

Riviera 47 with Cummins QSM11 660hp on straight shafts weighing about 20ton dry. Used 9,509 Litres
Riviera 5400 with D11 725hp IPS950s weighing about 25 ton dry. Used 8,208 Litres.

The larger boat with approx. 25% more weight used considerably less fuel. It'll be interesting to see if the fuel usage changes much when I do the return trip in November. The 5400 performs well with the IPS950s, I averaged about 26knots for the trip whereas the 47 was happier at 20-22 knots.

Paul.

 

[antony s]

We have a 2017 v48 open and have found fouling not to be a big issue . Our boat is heavy as it has a big tender in the garage , seakeeper and upgraded gen set and it easily cruises at 26knt all throughout the season with IPs 600

 

[marcochi76]

It'll be interesting to see if the fuel usage changes much when I do the return trip in November. The 5400 performs well with the IPS950s, I averaged about 26knots for the trip whereas the 47 was happier at 20-22 knots.

Paul.

Following with interest

 

[Portofino]

Another variable with anecdotal reports is the the fact that the local fouling differs coast to coast .
For example where the OP s based the Cote d Azur fouling pretty bad .I know from experience berthing there .
You have to be on top of your game and the proprietary products instructions followed to the letter .
Any shortcuts and they slough off / last 1/2 season etc .

Move 80 miles E into Liguria and the problem seemingly disappears , the fouling is lighter to the point you hardly have to a scrub the stern gear , any snake oil prop antifoul works .If you scrub them the accretions come off easier .
Or simply a good 1 hr run at 1800 rpm and props kinda self cleans . You see the engine load % drop as the knots increase .
Never got that with the accretions in the CdA .

Would have thought the D6 s haven’t got the torque spinning large IPs wheels to spin the crap off the props ….well not in the CdA ? Dif getting up on the plane ?

 

[Willy G]

When I purchased my current boat, there was a bit of chatter on my post in respect of IPS drives as well as quite a few other posts on here that have been a little unfavourable to IPS drives. I thought it would be helpful to give my feedback as an IPS boat owner, after 16 months of having it. Granted I have my comparison to outdrives as I have not owned a shaft drive, but hopefully its of interest.

Pro's

• Using the joystick is great. It makes a lot of manoeuvring very simplistic and is very convenient in an array of situations.
• The joystick hasn't de-skilled me at all, as I spent the first 7 years of my boat ownership on outdrives and in tidal waters. I alternate how I close quarter the boat from the joystick to the sticks and wheel, to keep a sense of traditional manoeuvring.
• So long as you follow a proper and thorough maintenance schedule then you should not be running into major problems. Having just serviced my boat in its first major service, the oil drained out clear and not emulsified. I took note with my engineer that there was a very tiny mark on one of the shafts, so we may change that next year, but its not in danger of causing issues in the next season. We have also decided to change shaft seals next year, as a precautionary measure.
• One of the benefits of having IPS over outdrives is that you can check the oil from the engine bay, so regular checks to see if there is any emulsification. This is helpful given that you can catch any issues nice and early should they arise.
• Servicing is nice and simple, without all the hassle of removing the drives, changing bellows, shift cables etc etc etc.
• A med related benefit to me is the fact that the props sit well forward on the boat (similar to shafts in a sense) in comparison to outdrives. If you are berthing med style you see all too often the lazy lines are all over the place in some marinas, and if you then factor in you have no boats either side of you and a nice side wind, then its quite hairy not to get a line round the prop. The outdrive props are so far back you see a lot of owners at some point calling out the divers. I all too often it will spin the prop off its bush and its ££££££.

Con's

• Fouling does drastically effect the performance of the boat. This is most likely an issue related to boats of my size and power range, rather than just IPS - 50 foot with IPS 600's. Any fouling will run your speed right down. We were getting max 18 knots at one point last season. A mid season lift helped that, but it fouled up again quickly in the med heat and slowed down again. This year I have painted the pods and put Velox Plus on the props. I am hoping this may well solve the issue this season, so we will see
• Volvo Penta IPS oil is eye wateringly expensive. And you need much more of it than you do on outdrives for the IPS units. This was a big chunk of cost this year, that stuff must be made out of liquid gold.
• I can understand the theory that those new to boating and who get an IPS boat could not skill up enough. If you learn off the joystick then it could land you in trouble. I find that the joystick is fine in benign conditions, but as soon as you have a bit of a gust, its not great for berthing, and if it kicks up a wind, its definitely not good. You have the option of high mode, but if you are wanting to get into a gap, its going to be kicking up water and rocking the boat. You could use high mode if say you wanted to turn in an aisle and abort if you had nasty conditions, but not for parking.. You would need to use traditional methods to get into your berth, and that is where it could easily catch out those who rely on just the joystick

I think that pretty much has everything that I can comment on in there. Overall I am very happy with my choice, and if you are considering a boat with IPS, don't be put off by those with perhaps more traditionalist points of view. I am sure the mechanical simplicities of owning a shaft drive will always be the overarching reason why it is the favoured choice of propulsion and understandably so. However with so many modern boats on the market with IPS, it would be a shame for anyone to discount it as a viable choice if a) the boat has a solid maintenance history and b) will be meticulously maintained.

For reference my boat is a 2015 Fairlane Targa 48, IPS 600.

I've owned a 2019 Prestige 520 since new. Twin IPS 600 drives with joysticks (3) and DPS. I use this boat in Florida gulf coast 6 months of year and Kentucky Lake, Lake Barkley for 6 months. I have 1700 hours on the D6 435 hp engines and drives. I have replaced the IPS seals once and have repainted the bottom of the boat every year and coated the drives with propspeed every year during the annual pod oil changes. The service has always been performed by certified VP techs. Oil analyses of pods was performed annually. The engines are perfect. Water intrusion in IPS never happened. I had to change the pump on starboard pod at 1000 hours.
I started getting steering system warnings .. new steering motor and resolver. Then the annual oil change revealed high iron in both drives. Clutch plates are at end of life. Tech suggests new drives over replacing clutch plates due to the many bearings (tapered, roller and needle) that are certainly worn due to the hours .. not neglect.
The boat is 5 years old. Half of its life is fresh water.
What I am told is that 1700 hours is a lot. Really? V drive inboard or straight 11 degree shaft would last .. forever?
My annual maintenance for pods alone is north of 5k. Now, new drives will likely run 38-42k installed. That's another 8500 per year.
Do I like the pods. Yes. I will happily run yours for you. But if you are putting 350 hours a year on your boat, buy shafts and thrusters. The extra fuel economy cannot begin to compensate for the maintenance/repair costs over 5 years.
If you are having drinks in the haarrbor (think new england accent) and pretending to be a boater, they are perfect.

 

[oldgit]

To go over some very old ground again.
From new and for any first owner disavantages and problems with IPS may be of no or little consequence.
Warranties hopefully covering any problems and of course if thats the only power option being offerered on the boat you want, no choice.
Good chance that the second owner may also find himself in a similar position.

Its further down the food chain that any of the somewhat debateable advantages of IPS start to evaporate .
Especially those prop shafts having grooves in them on high hour engines " High" ? ......a 1000 hours .
And then the accounts of electronic gremlins affecting the IPS control systems.

At some point the situation will arrive where if you have two identical boats for sale one with shafts and on with IPS, one of them is going to to command a much greater price and will probably sell faster.
Wonder which one ?
KISS all the way.

 

[DavidJ]

To go over some very old ground again.
From new and for any first owner disavantages and problems with IPS may be of no or little consequence.
Warranties hopefully covering any problems and of course if thats the only power option being offerered on the boat you want, no choice.
Good chance that the second owner may also find himself in a similar position.

Its further down the food chain that any of the somewhat debateable advantages of IPS start to evaporate .
Especially those prop shafts having grooves in them on high hour engines " High" ? ......a 1000 hours .
And then the accounts of electronic gremlins affecting the IPS control systems.

At some point the situation will arrive where if you have two identical boats for sale one with shafts and on with IPS, one of them is going to to command a much greater price and will probably sell faster.
Wonder which one ?
KISS all the way.

Observing the kind of people turning up (with prior appointments, money and a dream) to view my boat at Burton Waters, most don’t really have a clue and questions revolve around things they know, like the cooker and light switches.
So I think a demo of the IPS will easily sway them.

 

[ari]

" High" ? ......a 1000 hours .


At some point the situation will arrive where if you have two identical boats for sale one with shafts and on with IPS, one of them is going to to command a much greater price and will probably sell faster.
Wonder which one ?
KISS all the way.

Yes, high. 1,000 hours on a 2019 is incredibly high by leisure boat standards (but good for the owner getting that much use out of it). 50 hours a year is typical, so most boats will be circa 20 years old before hitting those kind of hours.

As to your second point, depends very much who's buying the boat. An inexperienced owner, or one who has only used joystick controlled pod drive through his/her boating career will absolutely favour the IPS boat. Likewise someone prioritising interior volume (another benefit of IPS). However someone focussing on minimising costs will favour shaft drive.

That's not to say I personally favour IPS, I'd have shafts, but then I'm very comfortable handling a shaft drive boat. But not everyone is, and some people want maximum space on board, so there is a place, and a demand, for IPS in the new and used market, just as there is, and always has been, for outdrives for the benefits they bring despite the potentially higher servicing and maintenance costs.

Different people want different things.