Instrumentaion

[prv]

William, thanks for your post. Regarding the ketch configuration I once said to Steve Hartley at Taskers (who for the benefit of non-local people is the Chief Sail-maker there) that I had misgivings about my choice of Ketch configuration. He was startled and said in no uncertain terms "there is nothing wrong with a ketch, people just don't know how to sail them" Whether that is right or wrong I don't know but I do know they look very pretty!!

Our previous boat was a yawl. Two masts definitely much prettier than one

Pete

 

[coopec]

. It just strikes us here as odd that you are focussing so intently on engine gauges and little else, when to most of us they're not a big part of how we use our boats.

Pete

OMG !! I'm not focusing on anything else? I wonder why you think that? My mind is working like a computer!! I keep reminding myself - one thing at a time.
Now that I've finished the waste holding tank and water tanks one of my next jobs is lightning protection. I suppose you'll tell me that is not necessary? I am busy buying hinges, latches on eBay to hold locker lids in place. I have cut cardboard patterns for for bunks/settees and been to the foam rubber supplier (that's all underway). I am buying bits and pieces off eBay trying to find an affordable way to secure the cabin sole. A S/S fabricator is currently fabricating an anti-siphon loop so that I can complete the engine installation BUT I have to consider a raw water alarm and an exhaust alarm so I am an avid reader of YBW posts on those threads.......................

 

[coopec]

. My dreams just shrunk into very enjoyable sailing on the Swan. (like a night race last night just georgeous).
ll

Yes, I been there and done that a very long time ago out of RPYC. It doesn't get any better!

 

[coopec]

If the alarm goes off I look at the panel to see what the problem is. In our old boat the panel was in the cabin, just inside the hatch, which is perhaps not ideal but quite common in older boats.

Most sailing boats do not have oil pressure or temperature gauges, just alarms.

Pete

To operate an alarm you would need a switch on the alarm itself and another switch to switch on the horn (because of the current draw) You must have blind faith in electronics working in a marine environment if you think that is adequate to protect your $10,000(?) motor.
I'd prefer to have normal gauges plus LED flashing lights on my instrument panel to monitor water flow, exhaust temp etc.; at least that would cut the number of switches on each device from two to one. Maybe WilliamH (or someone conversant with electronics) would care to comment?

 

[coopec]

William_H (or other electronics geek)

To avoid running lots of wires to the instrument binnacle can I install a negative bus bar in the binnacle? Would that be unwise "because of electrical interference from one instrument to another" or some other obscure reason that I am not aware of?. Is doing that normal practice?

 

[Norman_E]

William_H (or other electronics geek)

To avoid running lots of wires to the instrument binnacle can I install a negative bus bar in the binnacle? Would that be unwise "because of electrical interference from one instrument to another" or some other obscure reason that I am not aware of?. Is doing that normal practice?

I cannot see any harm in that at all, indeed I would have a single local connection point for all negative wires as they all lead back unswitched to the battery negative anyway. Similarly any instruments turned on by the same switch can be fed locally from a single point. Bear in mind that NMEA2000 instruments are powered from a single point by their own special cabling. The only thing to watch is whether any of the wiring or instruments are close enough to the compass to cause problems. First test is to watch the compass when you switch on, if the card moves you have something too close. Most instrument manufacturers specify a safe distance from a magnetic compass.

 

[prv]

To operate an alarm you would need a switch on the alarm itself and another switch to switch on the horn (because of the current draw) You must have blind faith in electronics working in a marine environment if you think that is adequate to protect your $10,000(?) motor.

There are no electronics whatsoever in a typical yacht diesel electrical panel (some latest model engines excepted). One side of the lamp and buzzer are connected to the positive supply, the other to the sensor on the engine. That's it.

When the temperature sender gets too hot, or the oil pressure sender loses pressure, they short to the block and hence the negative side of the supply, completing the circuit and activating the light and buzzer. You can't really get simpler than that.

Oh, and it's not just me that thinks this is adequate protection - it's Yanmar, Volvo, Bukh, Beta, Nanni, Sabb...

I'd prefer to have normal gauges plus LED flashing lights on my instrument panel to monitor water flow, exhaust temp etc.; at least that would cut the number of switches on each device from two to one.

No buzzer? So what happens when you're sitting on the bow, thinking nice thoughts and watching the dolphins, and your engine sucks up a plastic bag and starts to overheat? Gauges are nice to have, but an alarm is essential, because you can't watch gauges all the time.

Pete

 

[prv]

OMG !! I'm not focusing on anything else? I wonder why you think that? My mind is working like a computer!! I keep reminding myself - one thing at a time.
Now that I've finished the waste holding tank and water tanks one of my next jobs is lightning protection. I suppose you'll tell me that is not necessary? I am busy buying hinges, latches on eBay to hold locker lids in place. I have cut cardboard patterns for for bunks/settees and been to the foam rubber supplier (that's all underway). I am buying bits and pieces off eBay trying to find an affordable way to secure the cabin sole. A S/S fabricator is currently fabricating an anti-siphon loop so that I can complete the engine installation BUT I have to consider a raw water alarm and an exhaust alarm so I am an avid reader of YBW posts on those threads.......................

Don't be absurd. I'm not saying that you whole life is focussed on engine instruments, just that this thread is.

Pete

 

[coopec]

Norman_E

Thanks for that. I understand what you are saying but I'll have to google "NMEA2000 instruments" to follow you there. The instrument binnacle is well away from the pedestal mounted compass. (I'll have to watch that though if I start mounting displays on the pedestal)

Thanks for your help

PS I understand what "NMEA2000 instruments" means now so that's something else I will have to read up on.

 

[coopec]

prv
When the temperature sender gets too hot, or the oil pressure sender loses pressure, they short to the block and hence the negative side of the supply, completing the circuit and activating the light and buzzer

Are you sure a temperature sender could handle a 5 amp load of a horn/buzzer or would it require a relay?

 

[prv]

Are you sure a temperature sender could handle a 5 amp load of a horn/buzzer or would it require a relay?

I don't know what the current rating of the Yanmar GM-series panel buzzer is, but there's certainly no relay.

I built this combined engine and electrics panel for our old boat:

and for the engine section I simply removed all the components from the Yanmar plastic panel, and installed them into this one (swapping the key switch for the big rotary on/off switch you see there, and adding the "buzzer silence" spring-loaded switch to kill the annoying beep on startup). So I know exactly how the electrics on these engines are put together. The only relay is the big one on the starter motor.

Pete

 

[coopec]

prv

"Then the temperature sender gets too hot, or the oil pressure sender loses pressure, they short to the block and hence the negative side of the supply, completing the circuit and activating the light and buzzer.

Now the question I ask is Will that connection caused by the temperature sensor/sender take 5 amps needed to run the horn? If it doesn't then you will have to have a second more robust switch to work the horn

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Boats have used motors for over 100 years and will continue to do so. To effectively monitor a motor's performance you need a RPM (revolutions per minute) gauge, oil pressure gauge and a water temperature gauge (to measure the engine coolant water temperature) . (that would be the bare minimum) That is not going to change in the life of my yacht so I am installing them permanently now.

RPM - A gauge is useful but not essential. You set thrust for economic cruise or for speed. For economic cruise you will very quickly learn the throttle position and sound making the RPM gauge superfluous. For speed you are only interested in not exceeding the engine limits. This is accomplished by monitoring the temperature and pressure.

oil pressure - normal: no indication required - non normal: caution light, Emergency: Warning light and buzzer
coolant temperature same as oil.

For some time cars with analogue temp and pressure gauges have used fixed positions to indicate normal and non normal. The needle is fixed in one of two positions. To the user it looks like an analogue indication but it isn't. Because back in the sixties a bunch of psychologists and engineers realised that we only use analogue gauges to register rate of change not absolute value. This knowledge has been used in all safety critical human machine interfaces since.

But it's your boat so make it look how you want it.

 

[coopec]

prv

OK I've read other threads (which you have contributed to) and I now accept what you say. The Yanmar GM Series does not use a relay for the buzzer. That surprises me. It must be a pretty beefy sensor or a puny buzzer?

 

[William_H]

A loud electronic type buzzer or siren need not draw very much current. I found an old siren from an early car burgul;ar alarm. makes a lot of noise for not much current (.1 amp).
Visitors find it amusing as it is set up as front door bell.
I was driving our old rescue boat on Wed evening when the engine overheated. It has a guage which I did not notice at first. It has a recntly added red light which came on but was not noticed in the bright sun light. it I understood has a loud warning tone which comes on on test on turning on the power but failed to operate with the temp gone high. So i just hope I have not cooked the engine too much. I crept back the 300 metres to home at low power. It is an old mercruiser inboard/outboard.
So yes for coopec backup overheat alrm may be worth having. LED lights in the panel will be almost useless to see in sunlight. Unless very bright and then only to identify what is causing the siren to sound.
regarding the common negative to the binnacle. Yes a largish wire of low resistance should be OK for feeding negative power to every thing. a coomon +ve may also be OK if you are prepared to have a common fuse for electronics. (I would). Any resistance in this wire that is common to different systems can cause interference one system to the other. This can be minimised by a large capacitor at the user end from +ve to -ve. (1000microfarrad) this should not be needed however.
One other source of mutual interference is where wires have a screened outer to reduce interference to sensitive lines. If you ground both ends of the screen you can end up carrying power supply current through the screen which can then interfere with the sensitive wires. So for safety only earth one end of the screen. (Not applicable to radio aerial coax). good luck olewill

 

[coopec]

Thanks William_H

I have heavy wires from the battery to the Instrument panel bus bars +/-. All major components are fused (each bilge pump, each macerator pump,, pumps, each navigation light) but I have a separate (fused) circuits for Stbd cabin lights and fans, Port cabin light and fans and Aft cabin lights/ fan and 12V power outlets. Heavy 100 amp cables will be taken direct from the battery to the anchor winch circuit breaker located beside the (24V) anchor winch. I will install a negative bus bar in the instrument binnacle but of course the positive side will have to come direct from the sensor to the alarm light/gauge.
I have 12V/24V/240V power. An auto sparky who seems to know a lot about boats says I should install 24V bilge pumps. That doesn't surprise me because the supplier of 12V and 24V macerator pumps told me if you have 12V and 24V power on the boat instal 24V pumps.

I had to laugh one guy installed an automotive relay and a BMW car horn as his alarm. Initially I thought that was a great idea because you could hear it from a kilometer away but then by the time you got there the motor would probably be stuffed anyway.

How am I going? Have I blown it anywhere?

Cheers
I

 

[coopec]

A loud electronic type buzzer or siren need not draw very much current. I found an old siren from an early car burgul;ar alarm. makes a lot of noise for not much current (.1 amp).



So yes for coopec backup overheat alrm may be worth having. LED lights in the panel will be almost useless to see in sunlight. Unless very bright and then only to identify what is causing the siren to sound.

r

B]Yes and I've found them on ebay for $US2 drawing half the current that your doorbell draws!! Of course I wouldn't use an el cheapo but there's a $US25 one that looks like it would handle a marine environment

AND[/B]


Surely if the red/flashing lights were used to identify the reason for the alarm going off that would be a legitimate reason for installing them?. You could have alarms for water temperature, raw water intake pressure, exhaust temperature, low oil pressure, CO2 and if any go off some require more urgent attention than others.

I'm sure I'm going to install the flashing red lights!!.

 

[prv]

Surely if the red/flashing lights were used to identify the reason for the alarm going off that would be a legitimate reason for installing them?. You could have alarms for water temperature, raw water intake pressure, exhaust temperature, low oil pressure, CO2 and if any go off some require more urgent attention than others.

I'm sure I'm going to install the flashing red lights!!

Yes, indeed, you need the lights. The buzzer alerts you that something has gone wrong, then you look at the lights to find out what it is.

Pete

 

[prv]

I was driving our old rescue boat on Wed evening when the engine overheated. It has a guage which I did not notice at first. It has a recntly added red light which came on but was not noticed in the bright sun light. it I understood has a loud warning tone which comes on on test on turning on the power but failed to operate with the temp gone high.

It sounds like the buzzer is connected to the oil pressure sender (this is why it comes on before you start the engine - no oil pressure - it's not done just for test purposes) but not to the temperature sender.

Pete

 

[coopec]

prv

Thanks for that.

With the help of you guys I am rapidly working out what to do. Apart from those alarms listed above can you think of any others I might need down the track? (What about faulty alternator - not charging or is that going too far)

I've ordered one red/flashing LED on eBay just for inspection. Maybe I should instal 6 or 7 (5 have already been taken)?

I was thinking of having a separate alarms for bilge water or is that illogical?

Cheers