Daydream believer
Well-known member
7 wins out of 20 races-- he had plenty of time to get on form.
hopeless effort
At least in the old days we got to compete against the cup holder. Now they will not even let us near them.
INEOS AC 2-0
- Thread starter Ningaloo
- Start date
hopeless effort
At least in the old days we got to compete against the cup holder. Now they will not even let us near them.
Kukri
Well-known member
Mozzy Sails haven’t opined yet, so as a non-expert non racer I don’t know what to think!?
I hope Jim Ratcliffe feels like putting up another hundred and fifty million for another go, because I think that at the rate of development that we have seen so far with these beasts they are already approaching the speeds at which their foils cavitate, so a new edition would need to allow for that.
I think I am right in saying that commercial powered hydrofoil craft have not gone beyond the speed at which cavitation becomes an issue but the astonishing Vestas Sailrocket 2 did use supercavitating foils to achieve the world record of 65.45 knots in 2012.
I hope Jim Ratcliffe feels like putting up another hundred and fifty million for another go, because I think that at the rate of development that we have seen so far with these beasts they are already approaching the speeds at which their foils cavitate, so a new edition would need to allow for that.
I think I am right in saying that commercial powered hydrofoil craft have not gone beyond the speed at which cavitation becomes an issue but the astonishing Vestas Sailrocket 2 did use supercavitating foils to achieve the world record of 65.45 knots in 2012.
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bedouin
Well-known member
In the final he didn't get the conditions where he could make enough of a difference. LR was marginally faster up wind and that is all you need to win in steady conditions.
halcyon
Well-known member
We lost it in the detail, boat was as fast LR, like Williams as fast as Merc in a straight line, but one was world champion and one last in the championship.
Brian
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-known member
Starting in front gives you the conditions.
bedouin
Well-known member
They started in front in the final race and even managed to win the first cross but then LR managed to pull ahead
halcyon
Well-known member
But when both boats are about equal on speed, if one salis 1,000 metres further, it's very hard for to win.
Brian
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-known member
Won the first cross - and didn't cover, instead going out to the (slow) left. That was game over.
kingfisher
Well-known member
if one boat sails 1,000m ahead, are they « about equal on speed »?
halcyon
Well-known member
I said :-
But when both boats are about equal on speed, if one salis 1,000 metres further,
Not finishing 1000m ahead, sailing a race distance of 33,000m when LR only sailed 32,000m, same course same wind same tide.
Brian
snk
Well-known member
Setting aside pilot error and breakages VMG wins races. Pre these apparent wind boats, it was VMG upwind that won races. Now it’s VMG up and down. It was a big learning curve stepping onto a dinghy that planed upwind and sailed on the ‘runs’ with the wind ahead of the beam. Add to it picking the shifts and the side of the course with most breeze and it gets complicated. But if you’re in a boat with better VMG than your rivals, small mistakes can be clawed back with relative ease. It also give you great confidence to do your own thing rather than doggedly covering tack for tack and gybe for gybe.
LR had betterVMG across the course than Ineos and Ben and his team became spectators. It’s a grim place to be.
halcyon
Well-known member
Been following the racing, not in detail though, but VMG has been a problem all along, we keep sailing further. Looking at stats section, VMG / time (?) near the bottom. If you expand time greatly, you find that LR has a saw tooth profile, while INEOS has a much smoother profile. The saw tooth in most cases is above our line, giving them a VMG gain on average.
Brian
snk
Well-known member
To help me learn, I bought and fitted a VMG digital instrument which was an interesting and helped me get a feel for the best groove upwind. It’s more obvious downwind. Upwind, these AC75s are hitting 30+ knots in 12 knots of wind. Maybe more. The wind across the deck is maybe up to 50 knots. Shifts become less important than maintaining that wind speed across the deck. You have to steer to the wind speed and you hear the crews talking about ‘good pressure’. Some helms are smooth and some more aggressive in changing direction. Smooth could mean time it lost turning the rig to the new better angle. Don’t forget, there is no hull in the water and these things turn on the foil arm, so, aggressive is probably good. But in a lead mine it’s bad.
Moth sailors have this as a second sense as it’s so immediate in an 11’ boat. I guess the AC75s have endless instruments feeding back data to which the crew have to steer to and adjust the rig to.
to me, Ineos looked like it’s main was too flat in the lulls and they had poor control over this. That mainsail camber needs constant tweeking to develop max drive and min drag. Ineos was better in a stronger breeze when you no longer looking for drive but looking to minimise drag.
NPMR
Well-known member
It was written m any times that INEOS needed higher wind speeds to perform well.
Do the panel think that was a design error (i.e. not as well designed as say, LR?) or an initial briefing error?
In other words, did the manufacturers deliver to the design brief, or was the final vessel simply not as good as it needed to be?
Do the panel think that was a design error (i.e. not as well designed as say, LR?) or an initial briefing error?
In other words, did the manufacturers deliver to the design brief, or was the final vessel simply not as good as it needed to be?
Wansworth
Well-known member
But why was that problem not rectified,it was noticable
snk
Well-known member
The rigs on these AC75s are very complex and the clew box is proprietary tech and critical to the mainsail behaviour. I think Ineos was using a nearly conventional boom and I’m not sure that is compatible with the critical camber and leech tension tension adjustments these sails need. I guess the rig designer had to plump for developing a boomed rig or a non boomed rig. The latter is better and seems to make end-plating with the deck work better
There are other proprietary controls for the mast, in particular how to bend it to either dump the top of the sail or to over rotate the mast to develop power high up.
I raced a Tasar dinghy (Frank Bethwaite) for a few years with my kids. That had a rotating mast shaped as a truncated aero foil. Upwind, It was possible to over rotate the leading edge into the apparent wind and bend the tip of the mast to windward but allowing the leech to correctly twist off in the gusts. It was similar to how gulls bend their wing tips down. This developed a lot of power in a small mainsail and the boat could just about plane upwind. Not bad for a hiking boat from the early 70’s. I think these AC75s can do the same thing but this tech takes a lot of development and isn’t found in normal yachts.
I also think Ineos spent way too much time in the shed. They should have been on the water testing and refining these dedicated rig controls specific to their boat. I don’t think Ineos is a dud but just needs more on the water time refining the rig. Oh, and then there are the foils......that’s another bag of fish but in some ways there is a lot of existing tech to draw on, so , could be easier than the rig.
It would have helped Ben a lot if he had spent a 12 months racing a Moth. His Finn experience wouldn’t count for much
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
I have no idea why INEOS couldn't go further than they did. After being down in the dumps before Xmas, and then invincible in the RR's perhaps gave themselves a false sense of security in the Semis. None of the experts predicted what was going to happen. I think Ainslie new after the first race that it was all over .
It was great fun while it lasted. The best bit for me was when boats did/couldn't foil. The uncertainty of the whole thing held the interest . The trouble is that all the teams got better as it went on. Thankfully , all the AM team were ok but the capsize did show what can happen but was unlikely to be repeated.
Will I be interested in the finals ? Probably not . It's mainly a racing concept engineered by groups of very rich men and professional sailors with a weird mixture of nationalities taking part which make people think that a particular boat represents a country. I'm sure that regular racers will continue to enjoy it and overall is a good thing for sailing.
It was great fun while it lasted. The best bit for me was when boats did/couldn't foil. The uncertainty of the whole thing held the interest . The trouble is that all the teams got better as it went on. Thankfully , all the AM team were ok but the capsize did show what can happen but was unlikely to be repeated.
Will I be interested in the finals ? Probably not . It's mainly a racing concept engineered by groups of very rich men and professional sailors with a weird mixture of nationalities taking part which make people think that a particular boat represents a country. I'm sure that regular racers will continue to enjoy it and overall is a good thing for sailing.
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E39mad
Well-known member
It was a shame that even with the penalty in the final race we didn't see some proper match racing. LR just sailed past upwind as they had the faster boat for the wind conditions. Not much tactical knowledge needed to win.
I don't think Ben can be blamed. The boat was just too slow in lighter airs.
I don't think Ben can be blamed. The boat was just too slow in lighter airs.
Lightwave395
Well-known member
From North Sails:
THE CUNNINGHAM HITS THE BIG TIME
For most sailors watching, a Cunningham is a little string on the luff of the mainsail, just above the tack…
Upon finishing the phenomenal PRADA Cup Round Robin Day 4, packed with lead changes between INEOS Team UK and Luna Rossa PRADA Pirelli, Sir Ben Ainslie described an issue on the boat: Britannia’s Cunningham hydraulic ram failed to work for the entire race. Pre-start, INEOS Team UK had to set it and (hope to) forget it. Ainslie remarked in the post-race interview that his team was “missing one of the key power settings.”
Ken Read, President of North Sails, understood what was happening and why INEOS Team UK was struggling. In this high-performance foiler, the sail plan’s adaptability has become reliant on the Cunningham like as never before; it is now a vital factor in an AC75’s performance. Read took the opportunity to explain how Ainslie’s commentary is related to North Sails Helix Structured Luff technology.
“For most sailors watching, a Cunningham is a little string on the luff of the mainsail, just above the tack,” he said. “You pull it down; it tightens the luff, and that’s your upwind mode. You let it off for downwind mode. Wrinkles/no wrinkles- not a huge speed producer.”
Not the case in the 36th America’s Cup– wherein in this new age of the AC75 foiling monohull, the little Cunningham has a big job.
It takes some serious power, or sail depth, to lift the 6.5-tonne AC75 out of the water. Initially, the AC75 needs massive depth in its mainsail to generate power for lift-off. As soon as the boat is foiling, that depth becomes drag and the mainsail needs to be flat. As the boat accelerates, the mast bends, and a significant part of that bend comes from the Cunningham’s action. Therefore, the sail flattens, and boat speed increases geometrically. Turn the corner and head downwind, and you want some of that power back; the Cunningham gets eased. Rinse and repeat!
In mere seconds, the AC75 goes from low-speed displacement sailing in as little as 10 knots apparent wind speed to high-speed foiling in excess of 50 knots apparent wind speed. Throughout the race, the teams will constantly adapt their sail plan up and down the apparent wind range.
On a conventional boat, that would require changing the mainsail’s size by reefing up and down; on the AC75, this rapid, radical control of the mainsail is achieved by applying and reducing extreme tension at the luff– the Cunningham.
The ‘tiny little string’ has become a highly engineered, immensely strong component of the North Sails Helix structured luff system. It is, literally, the leading edge of sail engineering.
North Sails initially developed Helix structured luffs for downwind and reaching sails to enable them to operate in a wide wind range, including partially furled. But the AC75 yachts for INEOS TEAM UK, Luna Rossa PRADA Pirelli, and Emirates Team New Zealand demanded a much higher level of Helix integration.
Ken Read says the innovative Helix design philosophy is changing sail construction and sail trimming forever. “The Cunningham has become the foot pedal that modifies the sail plan to do everything you need in a complicated racing yacht.”
Traditionally, the mast bend is controlled primarily with the aft rigging– from the basic backstay to the most complex runners and checkstay configuration. The Cunningham is used to fine tune. However, if the Cunningham can become the one control to do it all, you greatly reduce drag as well as the complexity (perfect for cruising boats and short-handed boats), in turn, it increases the reactivity (essential for fast boats).
When integrated into a 3Di sail, the Helix structured luff demands a highly engineered carbon fiber taping system, built into the sail’s structure by robotics and then consolidated over a three-dimensional mold. In a complete turn-around from conventional sail-making, the Helix taping layouts within 3Di sails create new ways to look at sail trim across a wide range of shapes. The Helix concept is now available exclusively in sails designed and manufactured by North Sails for both racing and cruising- upwind and down.
It is trickling down, fast, to a sail plan near you.
Ken Read predicts that every sailboat, from weekend cruiser to offshore multihull, will have some form of Helix involved in the future. “That means people will be able to trim sails in ways we haven’t seen before. They will need to learn a few new tricks with these features in the sails, but the efficiency of your sail plan will change dramatically. It will reduce the number of sails you actually need in your inventory. And you don’t have to own a foiler to take advantage!”
Thanks to development on AC75 mainsails such as Sir Ben Ainslie’s, everyday sailors will enjoy more uncomplicated, more powerful sail wardrobes using technology directly from the America’s Cup.
THE CUNNINGHAM HITS THE BIG TIME
For most sailors watching, a Cunningham is a little string on the luff of the mainsail, just above the tack…
Upon finishing the phenomenal PRADA Cup Round Robin Day 4, packed with lead changes between INEOS Team UK and Luna Rossa PRADA Pirelli, Sir Ben Ainslie described an issue on the boat: Britannia’s Cunningham hydraulic ram failed to work for the entire race. Pre-start, INEOS Team UK had to set it and (hope to) forget it. Ainslie remarked in the post-race interview that his team was “missing one of the key power settings.”
Ken Read, President of North Sails, understood what was happening and why INEOS Team UK was struggling. In this high-performance foiler, the sail plan’s adaptability has become reliant on the Cunningham like as never before; it is now a vital factor in an AC75’s performance. Read took the opportunity to explain how Ainslie’s commentary is related to North Sails Helix Structured Luff technology.
“For most sailors watching, a Cunningham is a little string on the luff of the mainsail, just above the tack,” he said. “You pull it down; it tightens the luff, and that’s your upwind mode. You let it off for downwind mode. Wrinkles/no wrinkles- not a huge speed producer.”
Not the case in the 36th America’s Cup– wherein in this new age of the AC75 foiling monohull, the little Cunningham has a big job.
It takes some serious power, or sail depth, to lift the 6.5-tonne AC75 out of the water. Initially, the AC75 needs massive depth in its mainsail to generate power for lift-off. As soon as the boat is foiling, that depth becomes drag and the mainsail needs to be flat. As the boat accelerates, the mast bends, and a significant part of that bend comes from the Cunningham’s action. Therefore, the sail flattens, and boat speed increases geometrically. Turn the corner and head downwind, and you want some of that power back; the Cunningham gets eased. Rinse and repeat!
In mere seconds, the AC75 goes from low-speed displacement sailing in as little as 10 knots apparent wind speed to high-speed foiling in excess of 50 knots apparent wind speed. Throughout the race, the teams will constantly adapt their sail plan up and down the apparent wind range.
On a conventional boat, that would require changing the mainsail’s size by reefing up and down; on the AC75, this rapid, radical control of the mainsail is achieved by applying and reducing extreme tension at the luff– the Cunningham.
The ‘tiny little string’ has become a highly engineered, immensely strong component of the North Sails Helix structured luff system. It is, literally, the leading edge of sail engineering.
North Sails initially developed Helix structured luffs for downwind and reaching sails to enable them to operate in a wide wind range, including partially furled. But the AC75 yachts for INEOS TEAM UK, Luna Rossa PRADA Pirelli, and Emirates Team New Zealand demanded a much higher level of Helix integration.
Ken Read says the innovative Helix design philosophy is changing sail construction and sail trimming forever. “The Cunningham has become the foot pedal that modifies the sail plan to do everything you need in a complicated racing yacht.”
Traditionally, the mast bend is controlled primarily with the aft rigging– from the basic backstay to the most complex runners and checkstay configuration. The Cunningham is used to fine tune. However, if the Cunningham can become the one control to do it all, you greatly reduce drag as well as the complexity (perfect for cruising boats and short-handed boats), in turn, it increases the reactivity (essential for fast boats).
When integrated into a 3Di sail, the Helix structured luff demands a highly engineered carbon fiber taping system, built into the sail’s structure by robotics and then consolidated over a three-dimensional mold. In a complete turn-around from conventional sail-making, the Helix taping layouts within 3Di sails create new ways to look at sail trim across a wide range of shapes. The Helix concept is now available exclusively in sails designed and manufactured by North Sails for both racing and cruising- upwind and down.
It is trickling down, fast, to a sail plan near you.
Ken Read predicts that every sailboat, from weekend cruiser to offshore multihull, will have some form of Helix involved in the future. “That means people will be able to trim sails in ways we haven’t seen before. They will need to learn a few new tricks with these features in the sails, but the efficiency of your sail plan will change dramatically. It will reduce the number of sails you actually need in your inventory. And you don’t have to own a foiler to take advantage!”
Thanks to development on AC75 mainsails such as Sir Ben Ainslie’s, everyday sailors will enjoy more uncomplicated, more powerful sail wardrobes using technology directly from the America’s Cup.
Bobc
Well-known member
To be fair, Ben and the team did all they could. Although both boats were about the same speed, LRPP had better height upwind in the light stuff, and given a narrow racecourse and no big puffs or shifts, and it becomes almost impossible to beat a boat with better VMG.
Even when they got the start in that last race, LRPP just sat on their hip until the first tack and then had them, which was only possible because LRPP could point higher.
It is what it is. Had the windspeeds been higher, and they'd been racing on Course C, then the story could have been different.
This is only the first round in these boats, and assuming they keep them going for the next AC, everyone will go into it knowing a lot more about what it important and how to design a boat for the conditions. It's a bit like F1. A new team won't win in their first season. It takes time, data, and experience. LR has been a team for 20 years, ETNZ for about 30 years.
Not having the World Series has also not helped Ineos, as had those happened, I think that all the boats would have gone into the Prada Cup with much more even performance.
I am proud of what they have achieved and hope that Ineos sticks with the programme for the next AC (which it sounds like they will). With Ineos as CoR next time, we will at least have some say into the rules, and so can make sure that as many of the loopholes and silly rules (like the yellow card) are changed for the next edition.
Even when they got the start in that last race, LRPP just sat on their hip until the first tack and then had them, which was only possible because LRPP could point higher.
It is what it is. Had the windspeeds been higher, and they'd been racing on Course C, then the story could have been different.
This is only the first round in these boats, and assuming they keep them going for the next AC, everyone will go into it knowing a lot more about what it important and how to design a boat for the conditions. It's a bit like F1. A new team won't win in their first season. It takes time, data, and experience. LR has been a team for 20 years, ETNZ for about 30 years.
Not having the World Series has also not helped Ineos, as had those happened, I think that all the boats would have gone into the Prada Cup with much more even performance.
I am proud of what they have achieved and hope that Ineos sticks with the programme for the next AC (which it sounds like they will). With Ineos as CoR next time, we will at least have some say into the rules, and so can make sure that as many of the loopholes and silly rules (like the yellow card) are changed for the next edition.