IN in EU or OUT from EU

[Kelpie]

In the 2014 Scottish referendum, many people of fundamentally diffeent politican visions united behind a common cause, and this alliance was never put to the test. (Whilst the leading lights, and perhaps the majority of 'Yes' voters, could be labelled as progressive/lefty, it also drew in a disgruntled anti establishment, anti EU, anti immigration, camp, who clearly hadn't read the white paper).

The same thing has happened here; people voted 'Leave' with very different aspirations- this time there wasn't even a white paper. The Leave camp are in charge but without any clear mandate to work with. BoJo's vision of 'Brexit Light' is not welcomed on the right, where people are happy to ditch common market membership if it allows restrictions to be placed on immigration.

Hindsight is 20/20, but Leave clearly never expected to win, didn't flesh out the details, and now we are sat in the dark wondering what the UK has just voted for.

 

[VO5]

A total collapse of the EU within 2years if they don't alter their fascist ways. Many countries will follow now.

Difficult.

Many of them are caught like moths in a spider's web.... .

One day Europeans in the EU will wake up and realise they are in a Gulag.

 

[VO5]

The US equivalent of this is Trump getting the Republican nomination for president. Fortunately, the US electorate has a chance to get serious before the election that actually chooses the president.

Donald Trump is the best candidate to become President of the United States because he has all the right ideas and is the best fit to govern you.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

A total collapse of the EU within 2years if they don't alter their fascist ways. Many countries will follow now.

The EU will change in shape and size but it will survive and it will thrive. The EU grew too quickly, I think that the Eastern bloc countries joined far too quickly after the collapse of the USSR, leaving little time for adjustment.

When the Med countries jointed in the 80's and 90's, the Brits were under the impression that there would be a flood of them coming in the UK, however, the opposite happened, There was a mass exodus of people from the UK to the southern countries. Unfortunately, the opposite happened with Poland and the rest of the Eastern countries. However, Poland has seen the opportunity for the need of low cost Yachts and they are producing a number of good sailing yachts at a very competitive price.

 

[interloper]

I sympathize with the Brexit true believers who are becoming irritated by the government's inaction in providing notice of the intention to exit the EU as required by Article 50. I recommend that the true believers print copies of the following form to carry with them just in case they should bump into the prime minister.

 

[Tranona]

When the Med countries jointed in the 80's and 90's, the Brits were under the impression that there would be a flood of them coming in the UK, however, the opposite happened, There was a mass exodus of people from the UK to the southern countries.

That is far too simplistic. The flows are assymetric as Brits going south are mainly retired living off pensions and savings, and the flood (as it is now) of Greek, Spanish, Portuguese etc are young, economically active and will settle and breed - part of the reason why maternity services and primary schools are under strain. There are twice as many EU nationals in the UK as there are Brits in the EU as a whole.

 

[Tranona]

I sympathize with the Brexit true believers who are becoming irritated by the government's inaction in providing notice of the intention to exit the EU as required by Article 50. I recommend that the true believers print copies of the following form to carry with them just in case they should bump into the prime minister.

What is the point of that? It is clear that it is up to the government of the country wishing to withdraw to invoke Article 50, not for anyone in the EU to demand it.

It is quite right that it should be the new PM that takes that decision, when he has clear support from parliament for the negotiation strategy.

Suspect there will be a lot of U turning from the EU in the next few days when all the members meet. They may well have a different view from Luxembourg and possibly Germany which currently does not support J C J's hard line.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

That is far too simplistic. The flows are assymetric as Brits going south are mainly retired living off pensions and savings, and the flood (as it is now) of Greek, Spanish, Portuguese etc are young, economically active and will settle and breed - part of the reason why maternity services and primary schools are under strain. There are twice as many EU nationals in the UK as there are Brits in the EU as a whole.

This is far from the truth. There are thousands of young men and girls who go to places like Greece for holidays and stay there for good; it is a know fact and a jock (of a good nature) about the young Brits who end up working, after their summer holidays, and live in the Greek islands and mainland and nothing is wrong with this.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

There are calls for "Stop immigration and start Repatriation".

This could be a strategic solution; let's start Repatriation. Where is the baseline to start the repatriation?
1960's ; to send back the immigrants from India, Pakistan and Caribbean and subsequent generation?
1940's ; to send back the Polish and subsequent generation?
1800 and 1900 to send back the African, Jews and subsequent generations?
1300's to send back the Flemings and their derivatives?
1000's to send back the Anglo Saxons, Vikings and Normans and their generations after this?
or shall we draw the line and say that anyone who arrived in the British Isles after 50 BC is an immigrant; this includes the Romans and beyond, leaving mainly only the Welsh (or Britons).

 

[Niander]

The EU will change in shape and size but it will survive and it will thrive.

And how on earth could you possibly know this ?

 

[Keef]

That is far too simplistic. The flows are assymetric as Brits going south are mainly retired living off pensions and savings, and the flood (as it is now) of Greek, Spanish, Portuguese etc are young, economically active and will settle and breed - part of the reason why maternity services and primary schools are under strain. There are twice as many EU nationals in the UK as there are Brits in the EU as a whole.

The main reason that schools and hospitals (most EU immigrants are fit and healthy and came here to work) are under such strain is all the Tory austerity.

 

[interloper]

What is the point of that? It is clear that it is up to the government of the country wishing to withdraw to invoke Article 50, not for anyone in the EU to demand it.

It is quite right that it should be the new PM that takes that decision, when he has clear support from parliament for the negotiation strategy.

Suspect there will be a lot of U turning from the EU in the next few days when all the members meet. They may well have a different view from Luxembourg and possibly Germany which currently does not support J C J's hard line.

The point is to express skepticism that the Brexit will ever happen.

Part of this skepticism comes from the fact that the present prime minister refuses to initiate the Brexit process even though he intends to stick around until October, and his likely replacement has publicly expressed the attitude "There is no need for haste." The reality is that government leaders allowed the Brexit vote only because they believed it wouldn't pass, and now that it has passed they are delaying implementation while they look for a way out.

The thing that really powers my skepticism is the reaction to their delaying tactics. There are no street demonstrations and speeches by populist politicians demanding immediate action. Even hardcore Brexiteers are saying to the government "That's all right. Take your time."

 

[Neil]

As a Brit living in Ireland, I look at Brexit with a little distance but I'm still shocked, saddened and angry at the "Leave" vote. Now, when the votes have been cast only Nigel seems to want to claim victory. I've followed the campaign and even now I'm still unclear as to what the Leavers hope to achieve; this in common with a lot of British, with "what does leaving the EU mean" and "what is the EU" being the two top google searches after the referendum.

Boris has always claimed that the UK will negotiate to stay in the "common market club", to be able to still sell to Europe, without mentioning the fact using either the Norwegian model or the Swiss model still requires adherence to EU rules, most notably free movement of people. However, the major pillar of the leave campaign was a curb on immigration.....How do you square that circle? Not only that, but the UK would still have to pay into the EU: Norway pays only a little less than the UK, but has no say in making the rules.

I'm just wondering on what basis the UK government (and I've no idea what that will look like, going on current activities) will negotiate? What can the UK offer to Europe that it can't get from within the EU? The French build better boats, the Germans better cars, the Italians nicer clothes...The other side of the coin is that the EU cannot afford to give better terms than Norway or the Swiss. Furthermore, the Norwegians speculate that once their oil revenues run out, they'll be better off in the EU, and will ask to join.

The other alternative is a complete break, but then we're talking import/export tariffs, visas, restrictions on living in Europe, whether on a boat or land, etc etc- you might as well be from Afghanistan as far as the rest of Europe is concerned. Again, what can the UK offer Europe that it can't get from the 27 nations? Sell to the Commonwealth, China? - you could do that before, what more can you offer them now?

Not everything is right with the EU and maybe there needs to be reform, but in my view, it's still the best game in town.

At least now I have an Irish passport as well as my British one... I wonder if they'll go back to being black.... So I can visit the Old Country, whenever I like, if I wanted.......

 

[LONG_KEELER]

The point is to express skepticism that the Brexit will ever happen.

Part of this skepticism comes from the fact that the present prime minister refuses to initiate the Brexit process even though he intends to stick around until October, and his likely replacement has publicly expressed the attitude "There is no need for haste." The reality is that government leaders allowed the Brexit vote only because they believed it wouldn't pass, and now that it has passed they are delaying implementation while they look for a way out.

The thing that really powers my skepticism is the reaction to their delaying tactics. There are no street demonstrations and speeches by populist politicians demanding immediate action. Even hardcore Brexiteers are saying to the government "That's all right. Take your time."

I fear that you are correct.

The Tories will welch on Brexit. They had no intention to honour such an outcome before or after.

If there is an election fairly soon , the Socialists and SNP will make a pact and not honour the deal either.

We all know that the new Tory leader will fudge about for yonks until they get the result they want. I don't think anyone trusts Boris.

Oh well, giving the people a true taste of democracy was a brilliant idea that will never happen across the whole world ever again after this shock for the elite.

I'm planning my own Brexit strategy . I think the only option for us yotties who wanted Britain back again is to sell up and sail .

 

[robertj]

I fear that you are correct.

The Tories will welch on Brexit. They had no intention to honour such an outcome before or after.

If there is an election fairly soon , the Socialists and SNP will make a pact and not honour the deal either.

We all know that the new Tory leader will fudge about for yonks until they get the result they want. I don't think anyone trusts Boris.

Oh well, giving the people a true taste of democracy was a brilliant idea that will never happen across the whole world ever again after this shock for the elite.

I'm planning my own Brexit strategy . I think the only option for us yotties who wanted Britain back again is to sell up and sail .

Very true words

 

[richardsn9]

As a Brit living in Ireland, I look at Brexit with a little distance but I'm still shocked, saddened and angry at the "Leave" vote. Now, when the votes have been cast only Nigel seems to want to claim victory. I've followed the campaign and even now I'm still unclear as to what the Leavers hope to achieve; this in common with a lot of British, with "what does leaving the EU mean" and "what is the EU" being the two top google searches after the referendum.

Boris has always claimed that the UK will negotiate to stay in the "common market club", to be able to still sell to Europe, without mentioning the fact using either the Norwegian model or the Swiss model still requires adherence to EU rules, most notably free movement of people. However, the major pillar of the leave campaign was a curb on immigration.....How do you square that circle? Not only that, but the UK would still have to pay into the EU: Norway pays only a little less than the UK, but has no say in making the rules.

I'm just wondering on what basis the UK government (and I've no idea what that will look like, going on current activities) will negotiate? What can the UK offer to Europe that it can't get from within the EU? The French build better boats, the Germans better cars, the Italians nicer clothes...The other side of the coin is that the EU cannot afford to give better terms than Norway or the Swiss. Furthermore, the Norwegians speculate that once their oil revenues run out, they'll be better off in the EU, and will ask to join.

The other alternative is a complete break, but then we're talking import/export tariffs, visas, restrictions on living in Europe, whether on a boat or land, etc etc- you might as well be from Afghanistan as far as the rest of Europe is concerned. Again, what can the UK offer Europe that it can't get from the 27 nations? Sell to the Commonwealth, China? - you could do that before, what more can you offer them now?

Not everything is right with the EU and maybe there needs to be reform, but in my view, it's still the best game in town.

At least now I have an Irish passport as well as my British one... I wonder if they'll go back to being black.... So I can visit the Old Country, whenever I like, if I wanted.......

You have made an excellent summary of the situation. No one seems to know what Brexit actually means in reality..... But one thing is certain. The elephant in the room is that any form of EU relationship depends upon accepting the four fundamental freedoms of the EU it is based upon, most notably free movement of people.

This has always been the case, and has never changed or been likely to change, and I do not believe that many people who voted leave understood this, due to the optimistic throw-away comments from the Leave campaign. Our mistrust of immigration has significantly changed the future direction of our country, for better, if you know more than the leading economists or countries queuing to do deals with the EU, or for worse, if you agree with the big multinationals such as Vodaphone planning their own Brexit.

 

[VO5]

The Common Market is a civilised way in modernity for free trade to take place between nations.
The EU is a fascist state and more and more people are beginning to see it for what it really is, a sugar coated pill we are encouraged to swallow whose effects embrace and resolutely sustain beurocratic tyranny as the result of a long term plan to destroy nationhood and replace it with slavery, simple.

 

[MJWF]

The Common Market is a civilised way in modernity for free trade to take place between nations.
The EU is a fascist state and more and more people are beginning to see it for what it really is, a sugar coated pill we are encouraged to swallow whose effects embrace and resolutely sustain beurocratic tyranny as the result of a long term plan to destroy nationhood and replace it with slavery, simple.

Wow - i dont see that. I see right wing ukip much closer to the nationalistic, xenophobic fascism that i fear.

We are in a proper hole and the uk will be worse off now than we would have been .. im no expert but i dont need to be anymore apparently... I was proud of Britain - now i am gutted. I personally dont think there is a way back and brexit will happen.

 

[Neil]

The Common Market is a civilised way in modernity for free trade to take place between nations.
The EU is a fascist state and more and more people are beginning to see it for what it really is, a sugar coated pill we are encouraged to swallow whose effects embrace and resolutely sustain beurocratic tyranny as the result of a long term plan to destroy nationhood and replace it with slavery, simple.

What are you on? Or is it your normal? Do you wear a tinfoil hat to keep the aliens from reading your thoughts?

 

[Neil]

Wow - i dont see that. I see right wing ukip much closer to the nationalistic, xenophobic fascism that i fear.



We are in a proper hole and the uk will be worse off now than we would have been .. im no expert but i dont need to be anymore apparently... I was proud of Britain - now i am gutted. I personally dont think there is a way back and brexit will happen.

Yes, MJWF, that's the size of it.

Has anyone given any thought to the EU nationals that have moved to the UK, bought houses, raised families and paid their taxes over the last few decades? Will a renouncing of the principal of free movement mean they will be forcibly repatriated? - going by some of the recent racist attacks, that's exactly what some of the Leavers expect (whether they are from the EU or not). How long a residence will count? Since the formation of the EU? or earlier - how many generations do they want to go back?

What about the British living in Europe? Will they have to go back? Will they be allowed to take an EU nationality? And what about our hols? Visa requirements to sun yourselves on a Costa or charter a boat in the Ionian? Liveaboards on a 90 day visa having to sail out of the EU and back to start another 90 days?

I decided to take Irish nationality when I was shamed by Blair taking us into Iraq, just too suck up to the US. I'm glad I did, because this whole business has reinforced the idea of a substantial and increasing minority of right wing, racist xenophobes that are giving the UK a bad name the world over.

"I just want England to be like it was, for English people" "We won the war and now the Germans want to tell us what to do!" " I want to buy any shape of bananas that I want"

Give me a break