IN in EU or OUT from EU

[VO5]

you're thinking too much

You are probably right.
There again, people only get what they deserve. I mean people who derelict their responsibilities and then bitch and complain when the result they might wish for is not the one they might prefer and not the one they get.
The fact that the British People have voted to get out of a trap to ultimately enslave millions, deprive them of their nationhood, condemn them to being governed by fiat, by decree, without recourse to appeal of any sort, to ultimately impoverish them, to lead them to the unnecessary formation of a European Army I ask you to confront the Russians, etc., and that this cluster of dangerous plans and evil intent does not seem to be understood in mainstream. But the United Kingdom has had a narrow escape. Now we have to see if the government acts honourably and fulfils the mandate given to them by the citizenry or whether they will be corrupted by the EU mandarins to contrive, by whatever means possible to try to do the opposite.

 

[interloper]

The EU will try every dirty trick in the book and not in the book to try to overrule the wishes of the British Electorate and to try every stunt imaginable to enforce their undemocratic will upon a people wishing to be free and who have voted to do so under democratic expression.
...

You are describing exactly the opposite of the situation that presently exists. Several European leaders have issued statements that they are disappointed but respect the decision made by the British voters and that the Brexit should be implemented as quickly as possible. It is leaders in the UK who are dragging their feet.

 

[ianj99]

Nearly all of you in here overlook the significance of the obvious.
The obvious is that 70 years have passed since the end of the Second World War, a tumultuous event in modern history in which victory was achieved to attain freedom.
Now it seems many have not learnt the lesson and are content to give up their freedom in exchange for serfdom, the opposite.

+1.
We've fought off invaders for centuries although it has probably taken the likes of Churchill and Thatcher to show the necessary leadership to achieve success. (Blair, the puppet of the USA & EU would have handed the Falklands to the Argentinians)

The UK has done a lot for Europe over the last 100years - we could have been neutral in both conflicts.

Cameron may have achieved more in his re-negotiations if his attitude had been tougher - if he'd said publicly that he would lead the UK out of the EU - negotiate from a position of strength, not, as he did, just go through the motion.

 

[Serin]

Funny isn't it? If the Remain shower had won by 0.01% they wouldn't think it unfair to stay in and wouldn't contemplate another vote.

And yet Farage was saying that he would be looking for a second referendum if remain won by a margin as small as 51/49.

Not a peep from him about that now. Funny, isn't it?

 

[GrahamM376]

And yet Farage was saying that he would be looking for a second referendum if remain won by a margin as small as 51/49.

Not a peep from him about that now. Funny, isn't it?

Never was one of his followers. Although I agree with some of his points, he doesn't seem to have any constructive thoughts and I can't help wondering where the National Front disappeared to when UKIP appeared.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I am horrified, despondent, depressed, gutted. This is not the country I know and love. My future has been changed irrevocably. It's a naive and foolish decision.

How can 39% of the electorate dominate - where's the democracy in that?

:nonchalance:

Where exactly is your problem ?? ??

 

[Capt Popeye]

+1.
We've fought off invaders for centuries although it has probably taken the likes of Churchill and Thatcher to show the necessary leadership to achieve success. (Blair, the puppet of the USA & EU would have handed the Falklands to the Argentinians)

The UK has done a lot for Europe over the last 100years - we could have been neutral in both conflicts.

Cameron may have achieved more in his re-negotiations if his attitude had been tougher - if he'd said publicly that he would lead the UK out of the EU - negotiate from a position of strength, not, as he did, just go through the motion.

:encouragement:

 

[Capt Popeye]

You are describing exactly the opposite of the situation that presently exists. Several European leaders have issued statements that they are disappointed but respect the decision made by the British voters and that the Brexit should be implemented as quickly as possible. It is leaders in the UK who are dragging their feet.

Humm, well suggest that its our UK leaders that are shaping up for a good deal for the UK and sizing up the 'right' moment to strike a 'deal', not dragging their feet, as you suggest.

 

[Bobc]

I supported Remain and lost; so out it is.

Financial markets reacted quickly and UK domestic stocks were tonked yesterday, in particular banks and house-builders. These moves were offset by a much better performance among exporters which earn a significant portion of their revenues in foreign currency.

Whereas financial markets act in real time, the economy at large moves more slowly and the housing market will be hit next. Uncertainty amongst foreign buyers will cause them to pull back, or at the very least pause for a while. Tightening credit (a corollary of stressed banks) will make mortgages more expensive. An unpleasant recession punctuated by falling house prices is all but inevitable; jobs will be lost and the youngest will be hardest hit – not just in the UK, right across Europe.

Yet I am not in the least disheartened. First, I take my hat off to the British spirit which rejected the EU project in principle, even if the decision comes at a significant short-term economic cost. I'm Irish and some time ago we too broke away from Britain; the country was in a bad way for a while but gradually got its act together and today we are a prosperous country which gets along great with the UK. BTW, expect to see Ireland block any attempt to hardball the UK into a fast EU exit and expect to see the resistance build up as early as next week. We've got a veto too

And that takes me to the second reason. I work in a London based firm and have no interest in winding down the business or laying people off. No surprises that we had a firm-wide meeting yesterday to discuss business possibilities all over the world, some of which we have not pursued due to pure laziness. Yet one could not help but be aroused at the drive and zeal which just poured out of the younger folk. We recently did a day out at one of the British aircraft museums and it was amazing to see how deep inside the boys and girls of today possess the very same spirit as the old WWII pilots and engineers. I would like to thank those cosseted Eurocrats for releasing it yesterday with their volley of nasty threats.

Now this Brexit thing has started, the UK needs to win the day and I think it can. The utter folly of the EU in responding to a declaration of independence with a declaration of economic war is beyond comprehension. Yet it’s a conflict Britain can win, helped by the fact that droves of EU citizens secretly despise the EU. Moreover their own prosperity and freedom is best served by ending this nonsense. For example, whereas British banks were hammered yesterday, the Italian banking system is in flames.

Yet despite all of this, deep down I personally feel more upbeat than I could have ever imagined just a week ago!

Brilliant post Dom, I'm glad you feel that way. I wish more people took that view and focussed on the positives of this rather than constantly digging up the corpse and shooting it again.

 

[maxi77]

Humm, well suggest that its our UK leaders that are shaping up for a good deal for the UK and sizing up the 'right' moment to strike a 'deal', not dragging their feet, as you suggest.

I would suggest the reason Westminster seems to be sitting with it's thumb you know where is because the leave team haven't the foggiest what to do next especially since 'Call me Dave' has told them he will not do their dirty work for them. From a personal point of view I am not certain the Leave leaders would know a good deal if it hit them in the face.

However if London seems to be in a daze Edinburgh is cracking on

 

[Austerby]

:nonchalance:

Where exactly is your problem ?? ??[/QUOTE

That the future of this country is being decided on the votes of 635,532 people (half the majority Out had) and it affects 60m people's future.

I want to see the sovereignty of parliament upheld: this referendum was advisory. We need both parliament to confirm and preferably a general election to confirm this mandate. Otherwise it ain't worth the paper it's written on.

 

[Euphonyx]

I would suggest the reason Westminster seems to be sitting with it's thumb you know where is because the leave team haven't the foggiest what to do next especially since 'Call me Dave' has told them he will not do their dirty work for them. From a personal point of view I am not certain the Leave leaders would know a good deal if it hit them in the face.

However if London seems to be in a daze Edinburgh is cracking on

+1 the thicks plotten

 

[Poignard]

The UK has done a lot for Europe over the last 100years - we could have been neutral in both conflicts.

(...)

What? Didn't your school teach history?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Brilliant post Dom, I'm glad you feel that way. I wish more people took that view and focussed on the positives of this rather than constantly digging up the corpse and shooting it again.

A good sound positive posting :encouragement:

More of same please ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

I would suggest the reason Westminster seems to be sitting with it's thumb you know where is because the leave team haven't the foggiest what to do next especially since 'Call me Dave' has told them he will not do their dirty work for them. From a personal point of view I am not certain the Leave leaders would know a good deal if it hit them in the face.

However if London seems to be in a daze Edinburgh is cracking on

Might I suggest, I recall that having given us a Referendum Parliament appears not to have researched the OUT vote prevailing and that our Civil Servants have not made prior preparations for our UK exit, so whom has been tardy in their actions, I ask ??

 

[Capt Popeye]

:nonchalance:

Where exactly is your problem ?? ??[/QUOTE

That the future of this country is being decided on the votes of 635,532 people (half the majority Out had) and it affects 60m people's future.

I want to see the sovereignty of parliament upheld: this referendum was advisory. We need both parliament to confirm and preferably a general election to confirm this mandate. Otherwise it ain't worth the paper it's written on.

Humm, well I understood that all those eligible to vote had their chance to so vote, anyone deciding not to obviously were undecided /not bothered so their choice goes by the way.

An election to be held between who or which parties, the Labour, Liberal, Green, Loony Party and Conservative are all pro the Remain leaving only the UKIP as an alternative choice to present the Brexit choice.

The only other choice for Brexit is perhaps a Left Wing Labour Party under Corbin which will split the Labour Party into two parts, those Luvey Popularist (I am doing all right) Blairites and the Lefty Corbinisters who have all to play for.

Not a good choice for the rest of us.

 

[interloper]

From the Guardian's comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[interloper]

There is a serious underestimation of the degree to which the performance of an economy is based on psychology.

In Greece, wages are depressed and real estate prices have dropped. The government has cut regulation and the country is now running a primary surplus. This should be a good time to invest, but it isn't happening because the economic beating the country has taken during the past several years has left potential investors paralyzed by fear. The situation is exacerbated by lack of confidence in the political leadership.

Britain now faces a similar situation. It is fully expected that many companies will choose to relocate, and this will have cascading consequences for real estate prices and employment. Even Brexit proponents have been talking about short-term pain. The possible breakaway of Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland adds further reason for fear. Through the government's inaction, they will add lack of confidence in the political leadership to this mix.

 

[VO5]

A good sound positive posting :encouragement:

More of same please ?

It is a very positive window of opportunity for the UK and the Commonwealth although here in Gibraltar we are plagued by our obsessed neighbours who insist that our homeland is Spanish. They insist on dual sovereignty. It is not on. They signed away Gibraltar in 1713 to Great Britain in perpetuity in exchange for Minorca under the treaty of Utrecht. Therefore Gibraltar is British and remains so. We the Gibraltarians solidly wish to keep our British way of life, our institutions, our government, our British Nationality, our British passports, and our status unaltered. We will not tolerate dual sovereignity as the current Spanish political obsession insists. We will not accept having our homeland falling into Spanish hands, nor would we accept Spanish nationality and the Spanish flag will never fly here. All of this rattling by Spain is a very old campaign they started no sooner was the ink dry on the treaty. They have tried to reverse the treaty the signed on many occasions. We have been laid siege to 13 times. We will never surrender to them.

But what I have explained above is an aside.

The public generally is not aware because the public is not driven to incisively examine the whole EU situation for what it is
in reality rather than what the media, the EU mandarins, the remainers, the European Central Bank, the government of the day in the UK, chooses to tell the public as part of a hidden agenda in an attempt to preserve the status quo.

The concept of the EU is not what a lot of people think it is. It is not a benign arrangement for a group of nations to be members of a club that pretends that membership confers peace among them. Nor is it a club that benefits its members by providing economic stability by sharing a single currency. Nor is it a federation that ensures uniformity and interchangeability between member states. Nor is it a harmonising influence as it purports itself to be. These are some of the excuses it offers to justify its existence. The real reasons are quite dark and ultimately threatening.

The object is to depower the member countries by steadily removing their rights to govern themselves and to replace that right with the imposition of centralised "dictatorship" for want of a better word, to ensure the destruction of nationhood, the eradication of national traditions, national institutions, national aspirations, national values, national interests and the individual wealth of these member nations, by stealth, by imposition of unworkeable laws and regulations, by decrees, by ultimately the overruling and overwhelming of formerly free people and condemning them to political and economic controls amounting to slavery.

Where does this wicked agenda originate and why ?

Declassified documents have been released quietly in the US that show that as early as 1945 and immediately after the Second World War the US were worried about a post war scenario in which they would be obligated to deal with 28 nations all at the same time. A plan was put in place for at least the independent counties of Europe not to go to war again, since war erupts when economic problems cannot be resolved by any other means, and for the countries of Europe to be able to trade freely without barriers, hence the development of the Common Market, the removal of tariffs and the easing of frontiers for free flow of people and goods. One of these initiatives was the introduction of Trans International Routing, or TIR.

But as we have seen and is repeatedly and amply demonstrated to anyone who pays attention, the US is not really governed by Congress or even the Presidency. The US is governed by two hidden forces. One is the Industrial Military Complex and the other is the Banking Cartel.

These two together succeeded in hijacking power away from the democratic mechanism of government in the US in order to impose not only their will but also to carry out their plan, to unfold over many years, to ultimately dominate the destiny of Europe. Then the EU is not an agreement seeded in Europe by member countries but instead a long term strategy to create and ultimately dominate The United States Of Europe and as a buffer to the former Soviet Union to serve the interests of the industrial military complex of the US and for its continued interest in war mongering and arms production.

In order to fulfil these doomsday objectives it has been necessary to subjugate the peoples of Europe, to destroy their nationhoods, their ability to govern themselves, to elect those chosen to govern them, to issue their own currencies,
and to maintain any semblance of nationhood into the future and instead to forcibly succumb people rendered pwerless to being governed by unaccountable, unknown, unidentifiable, remote, autocratic entities in a scenario in which the EU sets the laws, imposes regulations, overrides national laws and courts, and might even one day obliterate Monarchy, certainly Parliament, The House of Lords, and with far reaching effects of unimaginable consequence including the abolishment of the UK armed forces, the police, the judiciary, customs and excise, the border authority, and the replacement of same under the control of Brussels.

UK would then be overflooded with immigrants.

Why ?

Because part of the plan of the banksters and their cronies is to destroy Europe by flooding it with other races to purposely and deliberately dilute ethnicity and national identities to make their planned superstate viable.

 

[Tranona]

So the British government is defying the EU by refusing to take action to initiate the process for leaving the EU. Is that the strategy?

There is nothing to defy. Article 50 clearly puts the onus on the country wishing to leave to notify the EU. There is nothing that says this has to be done just because of a referendum, which in itself is not binding on the government anyway. It is parliament that will need to approve starting the process.

The pressure from JC Juncker is because he can see the whole lot unravelling in front of him. He does not have the authority to demand anything without the approval of the 27 states.