Importing a boat from Europe, Trading Standards Response

[nevis768]

Following on from a previous couple of threads on this matter I have spoken to Trading Standards 3 times now to get to the bottom of wither UK certification is required for Private Importers, or not.
In short, Trading Standards response is that the CE mark will be accepted going forward, and in particular for Private Importers no UK certification is required. Their view of the recent updates to the RCD is that unless you intend to place the yacht you have imported on the market on importation, the CE marking is all that is required.
As far as they are concerned, CE marking will be accepted going forward.
As Doug says in the other thread, in relation to older yachts, for a Private Importer, as long as you have complied with whatever requirements were in existence at the time, no certification is required.

Trading Standards are very helpful, you have to speak to your own area office, and they may take a few days to get back to you. They are also sending me some documentation which I am happy to share with anybody who wishes it. (I think it is the guidance I already posted). I was lucky in that there was a sailor in the TS office I telephoned who had a particular interest in this.
In short, the views of certain posters, Tranona, Ylop, Westernman et all, insisting that UK certification is required to privately import a yacht from Europe is complete garbage from start to finish.

I didn't actually ask what the situation for manufacturers etc was, but the main message was clear, CE mark will be accepted indefinitely, or whatever manufacturing mark existed at the time for the yacht in question.

I would also like to know why my ability to post on the previous thread was removed, but those posting the nonsense did not have their posting rights removed? I suspect a flurry of emails from the "other side"

I suggest the moderators now ring Trading Standards themselves.
When I get the documentation that will also be posted.

I will now, like Doug 478 , continue with my intention to purchase from Europe because the boat I seek is rarely available in the UK, and there is no requirement to have any uk certification.

 

[benjenbav]

Perhaps Trading Standards are interpreting the regulations as follows:

“36.—(1) If a manufacturer has not complied with the manufacturer’s obligations under this Part, a private importer must ensure, before putting a product into service, that—

(a)the product has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements; and

(b)the obligations of the manufacturer under the following regulations have been met or carried out in relation to the product—

…”

Emboldened words might allow Trading Standards to interpret the manufacturer’s obligations (for example, under Reg 8: “8. Before placing a product on the market, a manufacturer must ensure that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.”) to reference the original date of manufacture (1979 no CE; compliance achieved without compliance with any version of CE).

It’ll certainly be interesting to see what they say. Their opinion will not be a definitive statement of law, of course, in the absence of the point coming before a court capable of setting a precedent.

 

[nevis768]

Perhaps Trading Standards are interpreting the regulations as follows:

“36.—(1) If a manufacturer has not complied with the manufacturer’s obligations under this Part, a private importer must ensure, before putting a product into service, that—

(a)the product has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements; and

(b)the obligations of the manufacturer under the following regulations have been met or carried out in relation to the product—

…”

Emboldened words might allow Trading Standards to interpret the manufacturer’s obligations (for example, under Reg 8: “8. Before placing a product on the market, a manufacturer must ensure that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.”) to reference the original date of manufacture (1979 no CE; compliance achieved without compliance with any version of CE).

It’ll certainly be interesting to see what they say. Their opinion will not be a definitive statement of law, of course, in the absence of the point coming before a court capable of setting a precedent.

That was indeed the part read out to me, and then a further discussion ensued re Pre CE boats with the same explanation that if the original manufacturers obligations were complied with then nothing further required on importation. (Again I was only enquiring re private buyers/importers)
The chap had gone as far as checking with the Gov department to get a definitive answer. He further advised making sure to obtain/keep all original documentation for selling on in due course.

 

[ylop]

They are also sending me some documentation which I am happy to share with anybody who wishes it. (I think it is the guidance I already posted).

That will be very interesting to read when it arrives. If it is the .gov guidance it’s not going clear it up though as it specifically says private importers do have the same obligations!

In short, the views of certain posters, Tranona, Ylop, Westernman et all, insisting that UK certification is required to privately import a yacht from Europe is complete garbage from start to finish.

Well if that’s the question you asked TS may have given you a different answer, because that is not the entire position.

CE mark will be accepted indefinitely,

That’s never been in dispute for boats complying with the latest directive.

or whatever manufacturing mark existed at the time for the yacht in question.

That’s the place we are asking you (or perhaps you should have asked TS) to point to the legislation.

I would also like to know why my ability to post on the previous thread was removed, but those posting the nonsense did not have their posting rights removed?

How do you know what sanctions were taken against others? FWIW the mods generally don’t seem to intervene on matters of facts but rather on personal behaviour. They also generally don’t welcome starting new threads on closed topics; I hope their view of one where your opening salvo is “complete garbage”.

I will now, like Doug 478 , continue with my intention to purchase from Europe because the boat I seek is rarely available in the UK, and there is no requirement to have any uk certification.

Good luck, I hope you find it as trouble free in reality as you believe it will be.

 

[ylop]

Perhaps Trading Standards are interpreting the regulations as follows:

“36.—(1) If a manufacturer has not complied with the manufacturer’s obligations under this Part, a private importer must ensure, before putting a product into service, that—

(a)the product has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements; and

(b)the obligations of the manufacturer under the following regulations have been met or carried out in relation to the product—

…”

Emboldened words might allow Trading Standards to interpret the manufacturer’s obligations (for example, under Reg 8: “8. Before placing a product on the market, a manufacturer must ensure that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.”) to reference the original date of manufacture (1979 no CE; compliance achieved without compliance with any version of CE).

It’ll certainly be interesting to see what they say. Their opinion will not be a definitive statement of law, of course, in the absence of the point coming before a court capable of setting a precedent.

I don’t see how a manufacturer before 2013 could have complied with their obligations under “this part”. I suspect therefore that Nevis either asked the wrong question, or was too keen to be right and latched on to TS sounding like they understood the question; but we will see when he posts his definitive info from TS!

 

[benjenbav]

I don’t see how a manufacturer before 2013 could have complied with their obligations under “this part”…

The possible argument might go as follows:

“…this Part” is Part 2 of RCR 2017, entitled, “Placing Products on the Market”. It comprises Regs 6-40D.

Reg 8 (quoted in my post above) talks, for example, about, “Before placing a product on the market…”

If one were to construe that as referencing the point in time at which the relevant product was first placed on any market (as opposed to its first being placed on a market regulated by the 2017 Regs) then it would be necessary to look at whether the product was correctly certified when it was first produced and sold.

This would be consistent with the way the certification process works today, inasmuch as design compliance is primary (coupled with manufacturing being consistent with design criteria) rather than ad hoc inspection of produced goods that have not been considered at the design stage.

If this is the construction that is being applied by Trading Standards - I’m not saying that they would be right or wrong in this approach, by the way - then a 1978 boat would not have needed to be CE certified now because it didn’t require any certification when it was designed and built. Likewise a boat designed and built in 2001 and certified under the then current regulations would not require inspection and recertification today.

What militates against this construction of the Regulations is principally the express exclusion of pre-1950 largely traditionally built boats. Why include that specific exclusion in the Regulations if such craft would have been excluded anyway?

I’d like to see what Trading Standards actually say. It could certainly be the case that they are deliberately grandfathering old boats into the country to help folk who want to buy such craft from abroad on the bases that, there aren’t ever going to be many of them; revising the legislation to address a mischief affecting a vanishingly small class of people in a minor way just isn’t going to happen owing to disproportionate cost and requirement for government time; no case is ever likely to come to court (especially if the enforcement agency doesn’t press it) to determine the question, again owing to cost, lack of subject matter etc.

Potentially everyone’s left with an unsatisfactory situation. Trading Standards might have a consistent and believed-to-be-correct approach to compliance (having been achieved) or they might be turning a Nelsonian blind eye, or there might just be one or two officers who are taking such a pragmatic position.

 

[nevis768]

That will be very interesting to read when it arrives. If it is the .gov guidance it’s not going clear it up though as it specifically says private importers do have the same obligations!

Well if that’s the question you asked TS may have given you a different answer, because that is not the entire position.

That’s never been in dispute for boats complying with the latest directive.

That’s the place we are asking you (or perhaps you should have asked TS) to point to the legislation.

How do you know what sanctions were taken against others? FWIW the mods generally don’t seem to intervene on matters of facts but rather on personal behaviour. They also generally don’t welcome starting new threads on closed topics; I hope their view of one where your opening salvo is “complete garbage”.

Good luck, I hope you find it as trouble free in reality as you believe it will be.

My reply is from the Lead TS investigator, so that’s end of story, your piffle is irrelevant.

 

[nevis768]

Here’s the relevant part of the email response.
To cut a long story short if you as a private importer have the CE mark, or whatever was in place before when importing that complies with the latest RCD legislation. No UKCA MARKING OR TESTING IS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER.
In other words if the manufacturer complied that is fine with the UK enforcement body.
Here’s their email to me
Dear …..
The current guidance is at Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

CE marking will continue indefinitely for recreational craft as well as most other product safety regulations. So long as you ensure that the boat is appropriately marked and has all the correct paperwork you should have no problems when it comes to re-sale

I hope that helps
Best regards,
…..

Anybody who is interested can PM me for the full email.
I’m not putting the chaps details on here, because I didn’t ask his permission.
Nor am I responding to any more nonsense about this, it’s not my response, it’s Trading Standards so ring them if you don’t like it.

 

[benjenbav]

Here’s the relevant part of the email response.
To cut a long story short if you as a private importer have the CE mark, or whatever was in place before when importing that complies with the latest RCD legislation. No UKCA MARKING OR TESTING IS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER.
In other words if the manufacturer complied that is fine with the UK enforcement body.
Here’s their email to me
Dear …..
The current guidance is at Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

CE marking will continue indefinitely for recreational craft as well as most other product safety regulations. So long as you ensure that the boat is appropriately marked and has all the correct paperwork you should have no problems when it comes to re-sale

I hope that helps
Best regards,
…..

Anybody who is interested can PM me for the full email.
I’m not putting the chaps details on here, because I didn’t ask his permission.
Nor am I responding to any more nonsense about this, it’s not my response, it’s Trading Standards so ring them if you don’t like it.

Begs the question about “appropriately marked”.

Will send you a pm. I’m genuinely interested in the abstract and, who knows, a nice Nautor’s Swan with my name on it might be nestling in some forgotten part of Europe?

 

[Tranona]

Here’s the relevant part of the email response.
To cut a long story short if you as a private importer have the CE mark, or whatever was in place before when importing that complies with the latest RCD legislation. No UKCA MARKING OR TESTING IS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER.
In other words if the manufacturer complied that is fine with the UK enforcement body.
Here’s their email to me
Dear …..
The current guidance is at Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

CE marking will continue indefinitely for recreational craft as well as most other product safety regulations. So long as you ensure that the boat is appropriately marked and has all the correct paperwork you should have no problems when it comes to re-sale

I hope that helps
Best regards,
…..

Anybody who is interested can PM me for the full email.
I’m not putting the chaps details on here, because I didn’t ask his permission.
Nor am I responding to any more nonsense about this, it’s not my response, it’s Trading Standards so ring them if you don’t like it.

That is correct - never been any doubt. BUT it does not apply to boats that were certified to previous standards.

This does not mean you can import a pre 1998 boat (as has been claimed) as the regulations your TS contact refer to do not include any exemptions on the basis of age except for pre 1950.

I suggest you ask your contact a very specific question about pre 1998 boats, or share the complete response.

Everything you have posted on this thread has confirmed exactly what myself and others have been saying. You have added nothing new, except that TS agree with us.

 

[ylop]

Reg 8 (quoted in my post above) talks, for example, about, “Before placing a product on the market…”

If one were to construe that as referencing the point in time at which the relevant product was first placed on any market (as opposed to its first being placed on a market regulated by the 2017 Regs) then it would be necessary to look at whether the product was correctly certified when it was first produced and sold.

The legislation provides a definition for "placing on the market" in its interpretation section. It refers specifically to placing on the Great Britain market. All the regulations (for medical devices, PPE, etc - there's about 17 of them IIRC) are about the placing of that specific item into the market. Just because you were previously allowed to sell them you are not any more.

What militates against this construction of the Regulations is principally the express exclusion of pre-1950 largely traditionally built boats. Why include that specific exclusion in the Regulations if such craft would have been excluded anyway?

Exactly. But there really is no ambiguity in the regulations - everyone knew what is said pre-Brexit, the "surprise" was that the way the market was defined, probably accidentally, excluded boats which are legally in circulation within the EU but not already on the GB market.

no case is ever likely to come to court (especially if the enforcement agency doesn’t press it) to determine the question, again owing to cost, lack of subject matter etc.

quite possibly true, right up until the moment when someone decides its a problem - perhaps after an accident, perhaps because someone with some vested interest complains, or because a particular trading standards officer takes a dislike to a particular situation (or person in a situation).

or there might just be one or two officers who are taking such a pragmatic position.

And with every local authority having its own people that does make it less predictable.

 

[ylop]

Here’s the relevant part of the email response.
To cut a long story short if you as a private importer have the CE mark, or whatever was in place before when importing that complies with the latest RCD legislation. No UKCA MARKING OR TESTING IS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER.
In other words if the manufacturer complied that is fine with the UK enforcement body.
Here’s their email to me
Dear …..
The current guidance is at Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

CE marking will continue indefinitely for recreational craft as well as most other product safety regulations. So long as you ensure that the boat is appropriately marked and has all the correct paperwork you should have no problems when it comes to re-sale

I hope that helps
Best regards,
…..

Anybody who is interested can PM me for the full email.
I’m not putting the chaps details on here, because I didn’t ask his permission.
Nor am I responding to any more nonsense about this, it’s not my response, it’s Trading Standards so ring them if you don’t like it.

Was that the entire response? Well done for taking 54 words and translating them into 54 words with a rather different meaning. You'll note that he linked to the same guidance document you were quoting before. Did he explain why section 8 of that document was there? Picking up on benjenbav's suggested interpretation in #6 above that document says "If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to..." which is consistent with what the legislations says. Its just easy to skim over the bits I put in bold if your brain doesn't want to read them.

Would you be so good as to post the actual question you posed as well? Did you specifically ask about pre 2013 CE marked boats or non marked pre 1998 boats? because he doesn't seem to have covered that except for having the ability to say "well they don't have current CE marks so are not appropriately marked and won't have the correct paperwork".

 

[Koeketiene]

Following on from a previous couple of threads on this matter I have spoken to Trading Standards 3 times now to get to the bottom of wither UK certification is required for Private Importers, or not.
In short, Trading Standards response is that the CE mark will be accepted going forward, and in particular for Private Importers no UK certification is required. Their view of the recent updates to the RCD is that unless you intend to place the yacht you have imported on the market on importation, the CE marking is all that is required.
As far as they are concerned, CE marking will be accepted going forward.
As Doug says in the other thread, in relation to older yachts, for a Private Importer, as long as you have complied with whatever requirements were in existence at the time, no certification is required.

Trading Standards are very helpful, you have to speak to your own area office, and they may take a few days to get back to you. They are also sending me some documentation which I am happy to share with anybody who wishes it. (I think it is the guidance I already posted). I was lucky in that there was a sailor in the TS office I telephoned who had a particular interest in this.
In short, the views of certain posters, Tranona, Ylop, Westernman et all, insisting that UK certification is required to privately import a yacht from Europe is complete garbage from start to finish.

I didn't actually ask what the situation for manufacturers etc was, but the main message was clear, CE mark will be accepted indefinitely, or whatever manufacturing mark existed at the time for the yacht in question.

I would also like to know why my ability to post on the previous thread was removed, but those posting the nonsense did not have their posting rights removed? I suspect a flurry of emails from the "other side"

I suggest the moderators now ring Trading Standards themselves.
When I get the documentation that will also be posted.

I will now, like Doug 478 , continue with my intention to purchase from Europe because the boat I seek is rarely available in the UK, and there is no requirement to have any uk certification.

Your perseverance is to be commended.

And it seems you got the desired outcome.

Well done & enjoy the new boat.

PS: no doubt the usual suspects will be on to you soon with tales of doom regarding EU imports and VAT.

 

[benjenbav]

The legislation provides a definition for "placing on the market" in its interpretation section. It refers specifically to placing on the Great Britain market. All the regulations (for medical devices, PPE, etc - there's about 17 of them IIRC) are about the placing of that specific item into the market. Just because you were previously allowed to sell them you are not any more.

Exactly. But there really is no ambiguity in the regulations - everyone knew what is said pre-Brexit, the "surprise" was that the way the market was defined, probably accidentally, excluded boats which are legally in circulation within the EU but not already on the GB market.

quite possibly true, right up until the moment when someone decides its a problem - perhaps after an accident, perhaps because someone with some vested interest complains, or because a particular trading standards officer takes a dislike to a particular situation (or person in a situation).

And with every local authority having its own people that does make it less predictable.

Largely agree, but one issue from the interpretation section of RCR 2017 might require further clarification:

“Placing on the market [of GB]” is defined as when the product is made available, meaning, “…any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the market of Great Britain in the course of a commercial activity…”

In the context of commercial design and manufacture, ‘product’ perhaps means, for example, the Jeanneau SO 409, rather than an individual example of a Jeanneau SO 409. That was sold [placed on the market?] in GB from about 2010 and would be CE marked under the previous regulations.

 

[st599]

Largely agree, but one issue from the interpretation section of RCR 2017 might require further clarification:

“Placing on the market [of GB]” is defined as when the product is made available, meaning, “…any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the market of Great Britain in the course of a commercial activity…”

In the context of commercial design and manufacture, ‘product’ perhaps means, for example, the Jeanneau SO 409, rather than an individual example of a Jeanneau SO 409. That was sold [placed on the market?] in GB from about 2010 and would be CE marked under the previous regulations.

Product is precisely defined in the actual regulations. It's written in the singular and is the craft itself. Directive is also defined as the “Directive” means Directive 2013/53/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council on recreational craft and personal watercraft repealing Directive 94/25/EC(3)

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Part 36 defines the requirements for a private importer. The craft has to meet the "essential requirements", have all the relevant paperwork including the safety instructions, conformity paperwork etc. If that isn't available it's up to the private importer to have them generated.

Part 6 then defines the "essential requirements" (listed in an appendix)

Schedule 1 of the appendix lists the requirements for import.

 

[benjenbav]

Product is precisely defined in the actual regulations. It's written in the singular and is the craft itself. Directive is also defined as the “Directive” means Directive 2013/53/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council on recreational craft and personal watercraft repealing Directive 94/25/EC(3)

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Part 36 defines the requirements for a private importer. The craft has to meet the "essential requirements", have all the relevant paperwork including the safety instructions, conformity paperwork etc. If that isn't available it's up to the private importer to have them generated.

Part 6 then defines the "essential requirements" (listed in an appendix)

Schedule 1 of the appendix lists the requirements for import.

I’m not convinced that ‘product’ means the individual craft itself. I haven’t seen anything in the regs that would support such a construction. But may well have missed it, of course.

Singular doesn’t nail it for me: “The Sun Odyssey line is a product of Jeanneau.” etc.

As to the process of CE marking, my understanding is that manufacturers deal with this at design so that all that is required when units are manufactured is that they comply with the approved design. Rather than each unit having to be inspected for individual certification.

 

[ylop]

Largely agree, but one issue from the interpretation section of RCR 2017 might require further clarification:

“Placing on the market [of GB]” is defined as when the product is made available, meaning, “…any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the market of Great Britain in the course of a commercial activity…”

In the context of commercial design and manufacture, ‘product’ perhaps means, for example, the Jeanneau SO 409, rather than an individual example of a Jeanneau SO 409. That was sold [placed on the market?] in GB from about 2010 and would be CE marked under the previous regulations.

It doesn’t.
We covered that in the previous thread.
It’s not how it works with any of the “EU” regs.
The certificate of conformance is for each individual product - they should list the HIN.
The regs use a different phrase to describe “designs” rather than individual items (I think it’s product type but I’m not wasting my time checking).

The only possible argument I can see is that prebrexit the GB and EU market were synonymous and so even if that item was not in GB it was on the market. Who knows, with the right barrister you might win that point, but if “the otherside” was trying to win they would ask why the legislation doesn’t simply state that if it was its intention.

 

[westernman]

Here’s the relevant part of the email response.
To cut a long story short if you as a private importer have the CE mark, or whatever was in place before when importing that complies with the latest RCD legislation. No UKCA MARKING OR TESTING IS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER.

That won't be anything built before 2013.

 

[Seven Spades]

"As Doug says in the other thread, in relation to older yachts, for a Private Importer, as long as you have complied with whatever requirements were in existence at the time, no certification is required." did Doug say this or trading standards? For example if boat was built before the requirement for CE marking was compulsory does this mean we don't have to go to the effort of bringing it up to modern standards which is what Tom Cunliffe had to do when her imported his Manson. It woudl be nice if this was the case. A few years ago I wanted to import a Hyl;as from the US but I was told by the "CE Marking" yacht comnpan ies here in the UK that I would have to change the engine as it did not meet current standards. I subsequently brought a Discovery in the UK which has exactly the same engine fitted! The costs to bring the Hylas up to regs made importation not viable.

 

[benjenbav]

It doesn’t.
We covered that in the previous thread.
It’s not how it works with any of the “EU” regs.
The certificate of conformance is for each individual product - they should list the HIN.
The regs use a different phrase to describe “designs” rather than individual items (I think it’s product type but I’m not wasting my time checking).

The only possible argument I can see is that prebrexit the GB and EU market were synonymous and so even if that item was not in GB it was on the market. Who knows, with the right barrister you might win that point, but if “the otherside” was trying to win they would ask why the legislation doesn’t simply state that if it was its intention.

There are certainly instances in the 2017 RCR where product seems to be used to mean a 'type' of boat rather than an individual boat. For example:

"Designated Standard

2A.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (6) and (7), in these Regulations, a “designated standard” means a technical specification which is—

(a)adopted by a recognised standardisation body [or an international standardising body], for repeated or continuous application, with which compliance is not compulsory; and

(b)designated by the Secretary of State by publishing the reference to the standard and maintaining that publication in a manner the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a “technical specification” means a document that prescribes technical requirements to be fulfilled by a product, process, service or system and which lays down one or more of the following—

(a)the characteristics required of a product, including—

(i)levels of quality, performance, interoperability, environmental protection, health, safety or dimensions, and

(ii)the requirements applicable to the product as regards the name under which the product is sold, terminology, symbols, testing and test methods, packaging, marking or labelling and conformity assessment procedures; and

(b)production methods and processes relating to the product, where these have an effect on the characteristics of the product..."


And, from: CE Marking

"By placing the CE marking on a product, a manufacturer is declaring, on their sole responsibility, conformity with all of the legal requirements to achieve CE marking. The manufacturer is therefore ensuring validity for that product to be sold throughout the EEA..."

But, be all that what it may, the one thing I am clear about is that I would be put off trying to privately import a 90s, 00s etc boat because of the certification position. Particularly given the fact that there are known cases of folk having to go through the mill with US imports (Tom Cunliffe, for one). Perhaps RCR 2017 has changed this. Perhaps it hasn't. My devil's advocacy hasn't convinced too many so far and I'm not going to pursue it.**

On the other hand, your pre-Brexit argument is rather ingenious...



**Obviously, and this notwithstanding, I reserve the right to leap feet first into any future thread on the topic.