If you need helicoptered to hospital from the boat it will take longer now…

[ylop]

Coastguard suspends landings at 23 Scottish hospital sites

No direct CG evacuations to most of Scotlands hospitals for the forseeable future. I’m sure nobody is planning to get in difficulty but if you do - the final part of your journey will be by road ambulance (which everyone knows are not that easy to get when needed).

 

[Fimacca]

I seems to be the 'size of the chopper' that causes issue - air ambo can still land......

 

[ylop]

I seems to be the 'size of the chopper' that causes issue - air ambo can still land......

Yes - but can’t winch off a boat!

 

[penberth3]

I seems to be the 'size of the chopper' that causes issue - air ambo can still land......

Indeed. They should have done the risk assessments before they killed someone.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Indeed. They should have done the risk assessments before they killed someone.

Perhaps they did? No risk assessment 100% guarantees there will be no incident. i think they are twitching and probably over reacting. Of course they can land away from hospital and transfer to land ambulance, but the golden hour is optimum for survival and if someone dies due to resulting delay there will be an almighty stink

 

[ylop]

Perhaps they did? No risk assessment 100% guarantees there will be no incident. i think they are twitching and probably over reacting. Of course they can land away from hospital and transfer to land ambulance, but the golden hour is optimum for survival and if someone dies due to resulting delay there will be an almighty stink

There were risk assessments, they were based on advice of 30m downdraft zone and the advice is now 50-65m. Its not clear if that is because of a change of helo design (hard to believe that Seakings were much less blowy) or just new knowledge. Appears that they've been particularly lax in considering the risks in car parks - perhaps because parking is in high demand 365 days a year and the helipad is used only a few times a year in some cases. Its also possible that when helipads were built people had enough common sense to keep away but now everyone is in too much of a rush to wait 2 minutes whilst the chopper lands. I remember the days when seakings used to land on the meadows to deliver patients to the old Edinburgh Royal. I don't think there was any staff on the ground moving people away - it was just big and loud enough to be obvious. BUT there also weren't frail patients walking to cars.

Presumably whilst this article is Scotland specific the same issue applies elsewhere in the UK.

 

[nevis768]

There were risk assessments, they were based on advice of 30m downdraft zone and the advice is now 50-65m. Its not clear if that is because of a change of helo design (hard to believe that Seakings were much less blowy) or just new knowledge. Appears that they've been particularly lax in considering the risks in car parks - perhaps because parking is in high demand 365 days a year and the helipad is used only a few times a year in some cases. Its also possible that when helipads were built people had enough common sense to keep away but now everyone is in too much of a rush to wait 2 minutes whilst the chopper lands. I remember the days when seakings used to land on the meadows to deliver patients to the old Edinburgh Royal. I don't think there was any staff on the ground moving people away - it was just big and loud enough to be obvious. BUT there also weren't frail patients walking to cars.

Presumably whilst this article is Scotland specific the same issue applies elsewhere in the UK.

The Sea kings had much less downdraught. If you read the linked article it explains that the ban results from an accident in Devon.

 

[Gustywinds]

Can't help thinking that the Aberdeen one is down to amount of building they have done near to the Helipad. I was working in Aberdeen on the night Piper Alpha blew up and there were choppers landing there every few minutes

 

[ylop]

The Sea kings had much less downdraught.

Interesting - the AW189 is a bit lighter and rotors smaller diameter than a seaking so as a non-pilot / aeronautical engineer intuitively I would not have expected much worse. The S92 is a bit heavier but rotors slightly smaller than a seaking. Perhaps the NHS people responsible for the helipads are as naive as me - although I see lots of reports of previous minor incidents so someone should have woken up to the risks.

If you read the linked article it explains that the ban results from an accident in Devon.

Yes I know that - I read the article before posting it - my point was the news article is about NHSScotland’s response to the MAIB findings, presumably NHSEngland (or each NHS Trust?) has had to consider its own response? Helipads are used to bring in Trauma patients (eg from SAR incidents) but also for patient transfers to other hospitals. Most of the transfers are done by air ambulance rather than the CG but as the NHS Document linked to in the article notes this is not exclusively the case especially in poor weather. Perhaps that “demand” is lower elsewhere in the country. Or are most English helipads already 50/65m exclusion zones? The article doesn’t explain if English, Welsh and Northern Irish Hospitals are also affected, or perhaps they have formed a different conclusion like oldmanofthehills that closing the helipad is more risk to those patients than leaving it open is to the public?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

A lot has changed since Piper Alpha in 1988.

Retrospective updates based on incidents is nothing new. Car park users should not have to apply their own risk assessment because of hazards associated with a designated landing pad.

CAP1264: Standards for helicopter landing areas at hospitals | Civil Aviation Authority

The purpose of this CAP is to address the design requirements and options for new heliports located at hospitals in the United Kingdom. The requirements relate to new build facilities or to the refurbishment of landing sites at both existing and new hospitals. As well as setting out in detail the design requirements for hospital heliports, this CAP also provides guidance on their operation and management.

The CAA appear to be more interested in car park revenue generation than in user safety.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

CAP1264: Standards for helicopter landing areas at hospitals | Civil Aviation Authority


The CAA appear to be more interested in car park revenue generation than in user safety.

What a surprise !

 

[ylop]

Car park users should not have to apply their own risk assessment because of hazards associated with a designated landing pad.

But it’s not ridiculous that a car park can be closed to pedestrians (and newly arriving cars which will create pedestrians) during aircraft operations. That won’t eliminate the risk of damage to vehicles but it will massively reduce the risk to people, in a relatively low cost and quick to implement solution.

The CAA appear to be more interested in car park revenue generation than in user safety.

Well I think Scottish hospital car parks are all free now so revenue generation isn’t the overriding priority. But making sure patients and staff get to hospitals on the 360 days when there are no large helo operations seems like an important goal too. But it’s not uncommon for new rules to only apply when design changes are happening rather than retrospectively. The CAA seem to still expect existing sites to be well managed, just not requiring immediate building changes.

 

[LittleSister]

I had some work dealings a few years back with the James Paget Hospital at Gorleston, Great Yarmouth.

There is land reserved as an aeroplane landing strip next to the hospital (leased from the local council, I believe), but only ever used now for hospital helicopters. They have to have an ambulance to transfer patients from helicopter the couple of hundred yards or so to the hospital, and getting hold of an ambulance has apparently sometimes led to delays in the past.

They had plans for a new building with, amongst much else, a helicopter landing pad on the roof, so patients could be wheeled straight in, but it sounded like a long term ambition rather than something that was definitely going to happen in the foreseeable future. (Getting funding for hospital upgrades is a very slow and very uncertain process, as far as I could gather.)

That part of the coast doesn't have a lot of leisure boat traffic, but there is commercial traffic, a lot of wind farm construction/maintenance, and some gas rig maintenance/de-commisioning going on not too far away.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Even air ambulances have their restrictions. They called one when my late wife collapsed with a brain haemorrhage. In the end they didn't use it because a) The nearest landing place (a school playing field) was the other side of a ditch from my house (the people who arranged it didn't realize that there was no short route for an ambulance between my house and the playing field) and b) the time it would take the road ambulance to ferry her to the air ambulance, including transfer time meant that she was better off being transferred by road.

There was an advantage - the air ambulance had a consultant on board, who was able to stabilize my wife in the ambulance. Sadly, she didn't make it, but she probably wouldn't have anyway.

 

[Dave 71]

Slightly hazy memory of the details, but around 20 odd years ago I was choppered off a dive boat and taken to the hyperbaric chamber in Poole hospital. I don't remember a helipad, my memory is that it landed on a grassy area next to the hospital - certainly there seemed to be a lot of people about nearby, day trippers and the like, at least that's what I remember - maybe I was just wheeled across a more public area to the hospital - but I've been left with a lasting and slightly comic impression of picnic baskets, prams and dog walkers scattering when it came in.

I'm sure it didn't land in the middle of a park, but I always thought half the point of using helicopters was the flexibility in where they can land. I've worked on the designs of a couple of new hospitals and building helipads on roofs is hellishly complicated, expensive and possibly not even possible unless planned into a new build. Sacrificing a bit of car park and leaving a grassy area to land on doesn't seem a big deal given that's where they land when collecting a casualty, but someone will find a book of rules and massively overcomplicate it.

 

[Sandy]

Is this the result of the helipad being placed in the stupidest position known to man at Derriford Hospital in Plymouth? The first time I walked passed it my thought was, what eejit thought that was a good idea. Come to think of it the helipad at Royal Devon and Exeter is not ideal.

Saying all of that it is common for helicopters to land some distance from the front of A&E, the old Whirlwinds of 22 Sqn used to land at the "new" car park at the other end of town in Fort William.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Slightly hazy memory of the details, but around 20 odd years ago I was choppered off a dive boat and taken to the hyperbaric chamber in Poole hospital. I don't remember a helipad, my memory is that it landed on a grassy area next to the hospital - certainly there seemed to be a lot of people about nearby, day trippers and the like, at least that's what I remember - maybe I was just wheeled across a more public area to the hospital - but I've been left with a lasting and slightly comic impression of picnic baskets, prams and dog walkers scattering when it came in.

I'm sure it didn't land in the middle of a park, but I always thought half the point of using helicopters was the flexibility in where they can land. I've worked on the designs of a couple of new hospitals and building helipads on roofs is hellishly complicated, expensive and possibly not even possible unless planned into a new build. Sacrificing a bit of car park and leaving a grassy area to land on doesn't seem a big deal given that's where they land when collecting a casualty, but someone will find a book of rules and massively overcomplicate it.

I think they have landing sites checked out in advance, and playing fields are an obvious choice. As the helicopter flies it was fairly close, but the drain immediately next to my property has only two crossing points, and the closest doesn't give access to the playing field. There would have been a better choice, but it's a field that is allowed to grow wild, with several small plantings of trees. I can see why a helicopter pilot would avoid it, as from the air it would be impossible to be sure what the surface was like.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Its also possible that when helipads were built people had enough common sense to keep away but now everyone is in too much of a rush to wait 2 minutes whilst the chopper lands.

No, there have always been unaware people. Years ago when I was flying I was doing the pre lift checks with the rotors unpitched but at full speed when a little old lady tottered past in front right under the rotor blades. Helicopters are unsubtle beasts making a lot of noise, and even with no pitch on the blades there's still a lot of air, leaves, frogs & small dogs getting blown around, but she ignored it all. Just as well she went in front & not behind as if she'd walked into the tail rotor it would have taken her face off. Despite risk assessments & checks, warnings etc you can't cope with all forms of stupidity.

 

[trapper guy]

wait till they introduced the 'clean green zero emmission' electric helicopters....
oh how i laughed at the idea!

 

[trapper guy]

No, there have always been unaware people. Years ago when I was flying I was doing the pre lift checks with the rotors unpitched but at full speed when a little old lady tottered past in front right under the rotor blades. Helicopters are unsubtle beasts making a lot of noise, and even with no pitch on the blades there's still a lot of air, leaves, frogs & small dogs getting blown around, but she ignored it all. Just as well she went in front & not behind as if she'd walked into the tail rotor it would have taken her face off. Despite risk assessments & checks, warnings etc you can't cope with all forms of stupidity.

there is an irish saying, 'no matter where you go in the world, you need never pack a gobshite, because there will always be one waiting for you when you get there'