ICC is it really needed in the Med?

[CaptainCava]

Well you really started something here Sausage!
I can't believe all the hot air that's been generated.

To everyone who oposes them, JUST GET ONE, then you'll never be in a situation where you have to argue in a foreign language with a harbour master.

No aggro, no stress, just relaxing and enjoying life afloat - just like yachting is supposed to be.

 

[charles_reed]

Décret # 84-810

 

[JamesFrance]

[ QUOTE ]
Décret # 84-810

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, there is a lot to read there but from a quick look through it it doesn't seem to apply to smallish yachts used for pleasure.

 

[charles_reed]

There are no certificates required for pure sailboats.

Put a motor into one and you immediately have to be tested.

So unless you have an unmotorised yacht or one with a motor of less than 5cv, you have to pass a test and have a licence.

 

[JamesFrance]

This would seem to say otherwise:
[ QUOTE ]

Le décret concerne la conduite de tous les BATEAUX DE PLAISANCE à l’exception des navires de plaisance à VOILES <span style="color:red">même</span> équipés d’un moteur auxiliaire.

Aucun titre n’est exigé pour piloter un voilier ou un bateau de plaisance à moteur de moins de 4,5 kW (6,11 ch).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if this is rather off topic, just trying to get it understood.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
My YM certs were not taken in UK but in Sth Africa. They are International Certificates and are accepted all over the world. I have NEVER been asked for an ICC when I showed my YM Offshore

[/ QUOTE ]

You have said it yourself then - They are International. That's the difference. UK YM is not international - even though many countries use the RYA syllabus / examination / structure to base their ticket on.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a case of commonsense and foresight of what might occur. The need for that bit of paper imo will become more relevant as time passes.


[/ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of the old joke about the man who threw money out of the train window to "keep the elephants away".
We've heard from lots of people who believe that their ICC keeps them out of trouble, but still not a single case of someone who has suffered through not having one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but you have failed to read my posts then ? I am now at this time embroiled in a court case here ... second in co-operation with various authorities and local yachtsmen in organising an Association to sort here in Latvia the very subject.

 

[Refueler]

Interesting that no-ones risen to the 'bait' about 'scared' to take licence / ticket ......... so I assume I'm right.

I admit I was and put it off ... being one of the "I'm brit - I don't want one, don't need one, freedom of seas etc." .... Hogwash ! I soon found out what it's like to be on the end of a bunch of Police demanding papers !

 

[rallyveteran]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you have failed to read my posts then ? I am now at this time embroiled in a court case here ... second in co-operation with various authorities and local yachtsmen in organising an Association to sort here in Latvia the very subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read all your posts in great detail, but last time I checked Latvia didn't have a Mediterranean coastline. I'm sure the information will be useful to some people, just not very many.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you have failed to read my posts then ? I am now at this time embroiled in a court case here ... second in co-operation with various authorities and local yachtsmen in organising an Association to sort here in Latvia the very subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read all your posts in great detail, but last time I checked Latvia didn't have a Mediterranean coastline. I'm sure the information will be useful to some people, just not very many.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry ... like many on this thread ended up at a tangent .... My Original post quoting baltic etc. was illustrate that lack of could be a problem and that having it is not a bad thing. As I said before : having and not needing is better than needing and not having !

Many have sailed for years without and never a problem. But I dare to say that hit another boat, cause any damage or cross the line where authorities get involved ? What then ?

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
Many have sailed for years without and never a problem.

[/ QUOTE ] As a matter of interest, during a paperwork survey I conducted several years back, I included a question about how often an ICC was called for. About 5% of respondents, in presenting their paperwork to the authoriites, had been asked to present a certificate of competence. And about half of those had presented national certificates, which had been accepted. However the sample was small (only 200) and didn't pick up anyone who had been 'warned' for holding an inadequate document, nor did I have a response from anyone who had no form of certificate.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
As a matter of interest, during a paperwork survey I conducted several years back, I included a question about how often an ICC was called for. About 5% of respondents, in presenting their paperwork to the authoriites, had been asked to present a certificate of competence. And about half of those had presented national certificates, which had been accepted. However the sample was small (only 200) and didn't pick up anyone who had been 'warned' for holding an inadequate document, nor did I have a response from anyone who had no form of certificate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of us have driving licences; we don't give it a second thought. If you asked in a survey how often people had had their driving licences declined by a rental company you might not find one in ten thousand. I suspect that the overwhelming majority of Brits sailing in the EU have an ICC -- even if they are vastly better 'qualified' with Ocean YM, etc.

Since we all show our docs -- vessel reg, insurance, ICC, passport or ID -- when 'stopped' by the authorities it is impossible to say how useful it was to have the ICC. You don't ask the police what they might have done had you NOT shown the ICC!

Surely the point is that only the ICC has an intergovernmental acceptance. If a Brit yachtsman was detained or inconvenienced for non-compliance with 'driving licence' rules, after showing a valid ICC, then the Brit would expect the British Government to give assistance. Without an ICC, he is on his own.

 

[jimbaerselman]

People may conclude what they wish from the survey. The relevant questions were 'Have you been specifically asked to show proof of your competence to be in charge of a boat?' and 'If yes, what proof did you offer?'. Five offered solely national certificates, and none of those were queried.

A small sample . . . but it shows the reason why many believe the ICC is not important if you have a national certificate.

One day we'll hear an authenticated report of someone without a certificate being prevented from leaving port until a certificated skipper is aboard . . . until then the differences of opinion about the need for an ICC will rage on . . .

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
'Have you been specifically asked to show proof of your competence to be in charge of a boat?' and 'If yes, what proof did you offer?'. Five offered solely national certificates, and none of those were queried.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was detained 2nm off Elba last week by the carabinieri and was told to produce ID, boat registration, insurance and permit to sail. I gave my ICC. I cannot tell you what would have happened had I not had an ICC....I suppose I might have argued that some other qualification was satisfactory or that no quals are needed by me, as a British skipper of a British yacht. My point is that since almost everyone has an ICC you could wait for a century to find out what happens to the BF who hasn't!

[ QUOTE ]
One day we'll hear an authenticated report of someone without a certificate being prevented from leaving port until a certificated skipper is aboard . . . until then the differences of opinion about the need for an ICC will rage on . . .

[/ QUOTE ]It could take decades or centuries...not that many checks are actually made and most people (if my acquaintance) do have an ICC so you won't expect to find out that way. If you want to find out what, say, the carabinieri would do, ask them!

There is no need for arguments or rage....the ICC is the only document showing competency that has intergovernmental agreement. Since all the other British quals entitle the holder to an ICC for a small fee, everyone has one and I really cannot see why there should be any argument about it. It's like going bungee-jumping on a marginal rig, to find out what happens. Totally pointless and potentially dangerous.

 

[mike_bryon]

“One day we'll hear an authenticated report of someone without a certificate being prevented from leaving port until a certificated skipper is aboard . . . until then the differences of opinion about the need for an ICC will rage on”

Surely Refueler’s account of the situation in Latvia makes the case for having someone on board with proof of competency, and very probably an ICC, in that part of the world?

Here is another example from four summers ago: a friend (a YM) flew out to move a boat from Portugal to Spain and in his hurry forgot his YM certificate. On entering a Spanish port he misjudged a turn and rather spectacularly broke his bowsprit on the quay. The harbour master interviewed him and wanted proof of competency which he could not provide. He was told not to move the vessel until a representative of the harbour master had assess his competency (at his expense). My friend’s competency was later confirmed and he was allowed to leave (stressed, poorer and late).

I can’t be bothered to meet your self imposed measure of authenticity whatever that might involve so ignore the report if you wish.

 

[grumpygit]

[ QUOTE ]
People may conclude what they wish from the survey. The relevant questions were 'Have you been specifically asked to show proof of your competence to be in charge of a boat?' and 'If yes, what proof did you offer?'. Five offered solely national certificates, and none of those were queried.

A small sample . . . but it shows the reason why many believe the ICC is not important if you have a national certificate.

One day we'll hear an authenticated report of someone without a certificate being prevented from leaving port until a certificated skipper is aboard . . . until then the differences of opinion about the need for an ICC will rage on . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

This might go part way to answer your question. Yes, I had to show my ICC to obtain a cruising permit for Croatia although I have a YM. As I have said previously that I also hand mine over with the other boats papers at Marina offices as a matter of course, so I do not know what would have been said if the ICC was not given willingly. From memory I seem to remember having to produce the ICC when I first applied for a berth at Benalmadena (Spain), I also had to produce it for a charter in Corsica.
Have I ever been asked for proof of competence in anger so to speak, the answer is no. But there again I have not given anyone just cause to ask for it. I've had no incidents, spot checks or run in's with any authorities.
I suppose like others I could have stuck my head in the sand and gone for potluck. But back to the well answered statement of is one needed, imo yes, if not I doubt I could have done the things mentioned above.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

[kaptainkrunchie]

Twice last year I was asked to conduct an ICC exam in the Fethiye area of Turkey. In both cases the skippers had been ordered by the coastguard to stay in port until they could produce a "captain's licence". Both cases involved a slight incident with another vessel.
They seem to know the ICC best of all.

Unfortunately, I can only examine and not issue the actual ICC which must come from the RYA. Luckily, the signed pass certificate together with the attached photograph satisfied the Sahil Guvenlik.
In my experience, the Turkish authorities do not like qualifications without photographs - so CS and YM are OK but Day skipper is a bit dodgy.

 

[JamesFrance]

Do any other countries issue the ICC, or is it only for the British to use to satisfy officials in places which require their own people to pass tests?

I cannot find references on the internet which do not lead to the RYA, which seems to have a monopoly. Maybe it is called something else in other languages?

Is it just that foreign civil servants are used to being handed the ICC by UK residents, rather than it having any actual international status?

 

[grumpygit]

[ QUOTE ]
Twice last year I was asked to conduct an ICC exam in the Fethiye area of Turkey. In both cases the skippers had been ordered by the coastguard to stay in port until they could produce a "captain's licence". Both cases involved a slight incident with another vessel.
They seem to know the ICC best of all

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for that piece of authenticated information.
I think those of us who think the ICC is necessary can now rest on our laurels and hopefully move on. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

_____________________________________________

 

[maxi77]

Many countries issue the ICC which is a proper international document a bit like the old international driving licence. Interestingly in the latest RYA magazine they commented that the US authorities charge about double what the RYA does, so even if their fees are steep they are not the worst.

The layout, and wording of the ICC is interationally agreed so that plods from arround the world can read it and understand the level of your qualification despite their inability to read English as they have to do with YM etc.