ICC is it really needed in the Med?

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
I realy have to take issue here. I you are a YM there is no need for an icc. The test for the icc is beyond believe that it proves competancy to handle a yacht to cross oceans and in and out of very difficult moorings.. nuf sed

[/ QUOTE ]The problem arises from the fact that you don't need any qualifications to sail the average yacht in UK or International waters. YM... >....DS are voluntary. The ICC is the ticket that has widespread international recognition in Europe. It is issued by the RYA and is there for the asking, for those who have already attained RYA qualifications at the appropriate level (DS practical and theory, I think, is the minimum). There is an admin fee (and that is outrageously expensive for what it is) but the fee is not the issue, really.

Isn't it a bit like asking your insurer for a green card before taking your car abroad? You know that the standard insurance certificate should suffice but when you show the green card officials nod and smile. Yet the green card only states that you have the minimum legal cover whereas your actual policy might give you cover vastly greater in scope and amount.

If you are qualified to obtain an ICC, send off for one. If you are not, then consider your training needs if any, and consider taking the ICC test without any training. It is very easy but the examiner isn't a complete idiot, one hopes, and it is one-to-one with practical demonstration and oral questions. I was also expected to show my log book, charts, etc., and demonstrate that I knew about the kit on my yacht. It is a serious test.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
The general consesus may have been yes, but legally there is no requirement to have one as a British flagged vessel unless you intend using inland waterways in any of the foreign countries you are visiting. Inland waterway being beyond a lock as opposed to up a very long river.

Personally I would not bother.

[/ QUOTE ]

The lock comment here is not generally the case in fact. Inland Waters usually start in a river or estuary where it is determined Port Authority or Administration of seagoing ends. This could at a bridge which stops seagoing traffic navigating and therefore Port Auth. ends jurisdiction. It could be a lock or any other point as designated by the countries national authority. Even within a Port Authority jurisdiction - you can have change from Seagoing to Inland rules.

Venturing past commercial docks and proceeding up-river will generally put you into Inland Waters situation and is advised that you have suitable Licencing to cover. The ICC is the only issued in UK that does this - unfortunately with it's mis-worded CEVNI part.
I boat up-river in Latvia / Baltic States and Seagoing in Baltic. This requires me to have International Recognised Licence to proceed Up-River and yes - I have been asked for it on more than one occasion. The Yachtmaster and other RYA qualifications are not accepted as they are not Internationally recognised ref. UN Resolution 14 & 40 - which ICC is specifically designed and referenced for.

Most people can probably go whole boating lives without ever being asked for their ICC ... but someone somewhere will be.

As they say in Insurance sales :

It's better to have it and not need it .... than to need it and not have it.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
I realy have to take issue here. I you are a YM there is no need for an icc. The test for the icc is beyond believe that it proves competancy to handle a yacht to cross oceans and in and out of very difficult moorings.. nuf sed

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but YM and all other Qualifications except the ICC in UK are UK only and NOT Internationally recognised as per UN Resolution 14 & 40.
Whether you agree with ICC or not is not the point - the point is that UN Working Party decided on the ICC and that's it. It was not drafted up by RYA ... but by UN ....

There are many locations that will happily accept YM etc. papers - but technically no.
The ICC is designed to cover national requirements of various countries for Certificate of Competence on craft designated.
The test for ICC may be basic compared to YM ... even DS, CS etc. but it still requires handling of the craft and demonstration of ability - unless of course you have RYA qualification already when you are issued ICC based on that qualification.

Lets say you can look upon it as a General Visa to operate a boat in other nationals waters ... That's how I regard it.

 

[co256]

If you are still a member of the RYA you can log on to their website and look in their "Boating Abroad" section.

There, you will find information for individual countries and what they currently require a visiting yachtsman to have.

ICC, Insurance, etc....

 

[grumpygit]

I can't believe this has cropped up again so soon after the last post, ( 20 odd posts down ). Nowt like flogging something to death.
What is the problem with some people obtaining an ICC, is it the costs, resistance to bureaucracy, bloody mindedness, or a fear of failure on a test?

Conachair's poll shows that the majority have one and imo everyone who travels in foreign waters should have one. I just can't see the issue !

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[JamesFrance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be interesting to know what they do about French yachts, as it would seem that their sailing boat skippers do not need permits either.

http://www.bateau-ecole.com/quand.html

I have no qualifications at all, but don't get around much now, so maybe have been lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very wrong on that one.

Suggest you re-investigate about French skipper requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was first told about this by a French sailor and the Website seems to confirm what he said. Can you let me know where to find the details Charles?

 

[oceanpilgrim]

speeking for my self, i have been sailing for 30+ years never had a test,see all the marina yachties flying abought at weekends no idear how to handle a boat but have got a nice bit of paper that says thay are competent,competent my arse

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are still a member of the RYA you can log on to their website and look in their "Boating Abroad" section.

There, you will find information for individual countries and what they currently require a visiting yachtsman to have.

ICC, Insurance, etc....

[/ QUOTE ]

Why post to me ? having had long chats with RYA on this very subject and also have copies of UN res's, RYA advisory's etc. I think I have enough thanks ! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Why I know a lot about it and affecting Baltic - particularly Latvia is that I am subject of a court case out here. Which includes Licencing and which is national, international etc.

I can tell you that as Latvia hasn't signed fully to UN Res. 40 - their licence is National only ... and the UK ICC has effectively more acceptability as its UN Res 40 based. It allows you to freely navigate inland waters incl. lakes etc. here. But if you do not have it on inland waters - forget it - you will be stopped and prosecuted ( here its' assumed you haven't also the Latvian national licence either). Current levels are about 400 quid fine and impounding of craft pending 'qualified' person moving it to seagoing / out of Inland waters. In fact they could insist that you leave Latvian waters totally.
Unfortunately Latvia having not signed up to Res 40 - means that RYA and others cannot advise exactly what Latvia wants ! or applies. But THEY do prosecute.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
speeking for my self, i have been sailing for 30+ years never had a test,see all the marina yachties flying abought at weekends no idear how to handle a boat but have got a nice bit of paper that says thay are competent,competent my arse

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree .. I've been on boats since about 5yrs old ... never had a yachting qualification other than what was needed to race college dinghys.
I'm now 53 yrs old ... I have Latvian Licence and also ICC ... why ? Because it's required for boating here when you move up-river or away from coastal and port areas. I look upon it as a Driving Licence - authorises you to drive a boat but doesn't prove you're gods gift to boating !!

 

[grumpygit]

I think you are missing the point, it's not the compentency that is the issue with most on this forum but just a case staying legal for any event..................

This is why I can't understand the resistance to the ICC... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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[JamesFrance]

In my case, the cost of going to a test centre, plus their charges, plus the RYA charge for the piece of paper, would take quite a chunk out of my pensioner level income, probably over 1000€.

I was not amused to be charged 200€ by the British Embassy in Paris for a passport renewal.

I have just remembered once having a piece of paper issued by the RAF in 1957, which I think was called a helmsman's certificate and allowed me to race their Albacores. I don't remember where I last saw that though.

I still have a Permis de Circulation from 1972, so maybe I could try showing that if anyone asks.

 

[grumpygit]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no qualifications at all, but don't get around much now, so maybe have been lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was not really pointed towards you James, more to the people that might have a YM and/or travel about that don't think an ICC is relevant.

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[Refueler]

Find them ... you never know ... only bug will be the CEVNI bit for inland waters ...

 

[AndersG]

Most countries have not adopted resolution 40. Most EU countries have not adopted it either.
Why are Brits so afraid of sailing without something that most of us can't get even if we wanted to?

 

[rivonia]

My YM certs were not taken in UK but in Sth Africa. They are International Certificates and are accepted all over the world. I have NEVER been asked for an ICC when I showed my YM Offshore

 

[mike_bryon]

Who’s afraid and who sees themselves as a Brit? Not me and I suspect few others. I voted with my keel some time ago. Times they are changing. A few years ago I could have put my hand on my heart and said I have never needed to produce evidence of insurance or competence. In the Mediterranean last summer I unfortunately had to produce evidence of both five times. We are heading west this summer and I doubt if I will need an ICC in the Caribbean but the original post was about the med.

fair winds

 

[grumpygit]

Being afraid does not enter the equation, nor being a Brit for that matter. It's a case of commonsense and foresight of what might occur. The need for that bit of paper imo will become more relevant as time passes.

It' a choice one makes, mines with, yours is without, que sara sara !..................................

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[rallyveteran]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a case of commonsense and foresight of what might occur. The need for that bit of paper imo will become more relevant as time passes.


[/ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of the old joke about the man who threw money out of the train window to "keep the elephants away".
We've heard from lots of people who believe that their ICC keeps them out of trouble, but still not a single case of someone who has suffered through not having one.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
Most countries have not adopted resolution 40. Most EU countries have not adopted it either.
Why are Brits so afraid of sailing without something that most of us can't get even if we wanted to?

[/ QUOTE ]

But many adopted Res. 14 ... the fore-runner of 40. Plus many now accept Res. 40 even if they haven't signed up. Latvia and other Baltic states are good examples - they are not signed up - but will ask you if you venture inland up the rivers etc.

The bigger issue is actually the CEVNI. The ICC is poorly worded, as the only way to have Inland waters ticked YES is to have the CEVNI exam. MOST European states do not follow CEVNI rules, but without that pass - your ICC will be classed coastal only. My opinion is it's not an oversight on the UN working group - but some beaurocrats way of trying to force CEVNI onto European states.
Take Latvia for example - close friend of mine is actually the guy who oversees this matter on West Coast. He has made it clear that ICC is legally accepted for all waters of Latvia, as long as it covers the location and type of craft you're on. That is if Inland Waters not ticked - then stay out of inland waters. If sail not ticked - then you'd be expected not to hoist sails. That is if you ventured further in than right of transit allows - ie unlicenced UK flag allowed in seagoing / port areas.
But Latvia is not signed up to Res. 40 - but they understand it and expect you to conform.

As another says - why anti ICC ? I never heard as much argument about International Driving Permits, which brits used to need when visiting foreign lands. And that was only an annual doc. I regard ICC and IDP in same light ... to satisfy another country's requirements.
So 35 odd quid for a 5 yr document. That's approx. 59p a month ..... I can think of a lot of useless items at far greater expense than that !

 

[Refueler]

Sorry if this upsets some - but I am begginning to think that many object to ICC not because it's a basic piece of paper - but because like many - have no qualification to apply and get one without having an examination.

I will say this : I've sailed on many different types and form of boats ... dinghys, mobo's, sail cruisers and racers. I've owned and presently own wide range of boats ( at this time I have 2 speedboats, 3 dinghys, 1 sail / mobo combo weekender and my larger motor-sailer .... a while ago I sold of my 1/4 ton Cup sail racer). I've sailed since 5 yrs old and am now 53 yrs old. 17 yrs as Deck Officer on ships, marine surveyor and owner of survey co.
Now I don't give this as a CV or expect anyone to see or read as "ol'refuelers trying to be the expert" .... far from it. I was nervous about satisfying ICC req'ts as I know I am not best at boating ... that various parts of any RYA / ICC test would show my lack of knowledge. So I had to go through the hoop of Latvian Licencing ... digging out my Professional Qualifications, Lifeboatmens,E Deck-Hand, dinghy qualifications, every scrap I could to add to the Latvian Licence I was examined for, gained that covered me for up to 12m, 12MT, inland and up to 3nm offshore.

Was it worth it ? Certainly it was. I now know for certain that I am fully legal to operate my boats. It was a learning experience that I came to value for what it showed up. It has prompted me to re-assess my ability and practice various aspects that I shied away from.

So who's gonna be first to own up as I have done - that 'nervousness' of taking the test is real reason for anti ICC (in fact I would say it's real reason most are against any form of licencing - forget the crud about RYA / money to govt / brit freedom of seas for centuries and all that rubbish) .... I know I was once that way - but I HAD to change.