Hypothetical question

[MainlySteam]

I would doubt if warps would be enough. I have a car tire (I rescued a nice clean looking one) to put on the boat if going far and chain and shackles so I can punch holes in the side walls and bridle it so that it tows side to progress so to speak. Whether it would work I do not know, but given the strength of our steering system I am not too panicy about ever having to try it.

There are two things most people seem to continue to have difficulty grasping (QSIV and Mirelle clearly excepted):

1. The boat will handle entirely differently with the rudder gone. Trials in the bay are only going to make you feel good.

2. If ones rudder fails in a F8 then I cannot understand how people can believe that anything that they can fabricate from poles, boards, etc on board will stand up to the conditions that the rudder failed under - let alone steer with it. It has struck me before, however, that a spinnaker pole bridled to its ends so that it tows side on to progress might make a satisfactory drogue though. Never tried it, just a thought in case.

Jimi, thanks for the precis of the Legend loss (whoops, scuttling).

John

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[boatless]

Bin thinking about the spi pole, but if it were pivoted, for the sake of argument, to the backstay fitting, streamed out behind the boat, and submersed by say 15 degrees, lines from primaries to it's outer end... no great loads...

Fortunately, I happen to have a 1 metre rc yacht (proper racy thing) with which I might experiment next time I take it near water.

<hr width=100% size=1>the above is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[temptress]

This subject has caused a lot of debate in our household this evening.... we've realised that the aft freeboard on our SO47 is also rather high for our previously prepared plan of a spinny pole & cockpit table to work. Sad really as it is the only possible use for the supplied table we've come up with yet (its too big to allow poeple to move around once its up os we opted for a folding model).

Anyway the Skipper has suggested that we lash them together but then lash the resulting oar over the side a la Viking steering board. A line from the board end of the pole forward which keeps the board in the water. Now you simply have to move the pole in and out possibly with a block & tackle.

The jury (excuse the pun) is still out here but does anyone else see a flaw in this plan?

<hr width=100% size=1>Temptress of Down
Southsea Marina
Hants
UK

 

[jimi]

I had wondered if the best use for a spinnaker pole in this scenario is to fix it across the transom and run warps with drogues through the ends thus increasing leverage?

<hr width=100% size=1>.. got an udder rudder, brudder?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Spi pole worry.

Bear in mind that a spi pole is engineered to work in compression and it may fold if you start putting major lateral loads on it.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[AndrewB]

Well, why not try it?

A striking thing about this thread is how few people have a tested emergency rudder arrangement. It's a topic that comes up repeatedly, and clearly a a concern to many. So why are so many willing to theorise, but so few motivated to actually try out ideas? After all, the RYA have drilled in the idea of practicing MOB recovery. We all accept that it is better to have tested safety procedures in place rather than to try to invent them in the moment of desperation - even though we recognise that tests can never simulate the real thing.

FWIW I found the spinnaker pole and board approach no use at all on my yacht even using warps to improve the leverage. But maybe it would work for others.

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[tome]

Re: Well, why not try it?

I think the point was well made about how difficult it is to simulate a rudder failure, which is probably the main reason. If you practice with the rudder locked, the behaviour will be very different to a missing rudder with the resultant alteration in underwater profile.

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[Robin]

Re: Well, why not try it?

I also doubt it would work except in benign conditions on most boats though I carry the tools/materials to make something up. I wouldn't try it beforehand because I wouldn't want to risk damage to either the spinnaker pole or my boat unless I had to and in any case I could not simulate properly the likely incident. Our rudder is mounted on a big solid S/S shaft and partial skeg, to lose it completely is unlikely (but would probably leave a girt great hole in the hull if it did go in which case just staying afloat would be a much bigger priority), more likely is a jammed rudder or one where the internal web/tangs have broken and which is waving around at will. Any emergency rudder will therefore have to overcome the remains of the existing rudder system as well. The 'floating free' rudder blade could be tamed with a line through a pre-cut notch on the trailing edge, but with a grp blade I for one am reluctant to cut one -might be OK on a wood or steeel rudder though. I think I would go for the drogue idea, maybe using the spinnaker pole as a spreader bar to obtain better leverage. The question is, what to use for the drogue itself.

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[AndrewB]

Excuses, excuses ...

No, I don't agree. As I said before, rudder failure just as often results from the rudder getting locked solid (e.g. due to a bent stock) as from dropping off altogether. That's easy enough to simulate.

What's more, no evidence beyond speculation has been offered that a yacht with no rudder will be dramatically different with regard to emergency steering. This argument certainly doesn't provide a decent excuse for neglecting a tested emergency steering arrangement.

One CAN test the effect of a rudder loss easily enough with a sailing dinghy. With my Wayfarer I found a steering oar easier to use with the rudder removed altogether rather than lashed in place, suggesting that emergency steering may actually be easier with the rudder gone rather than locked rigid. I regret not having retried this experiment when I owned a bilge keeler with a lifting rudder, but others here might.

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[AndrewB]

Re: Well, why not try it?

Robin, admit it, this is no plan at all. If your rudder failed in anything of a sea you'd reach for the big red button on your DSC. As would everyone else here, with the honorable exceptions of PeterB and Mirelle.

 

[tome]

Re: Excuses, excuses ...

I take your point, certainly a jammed rudder would be more likely on our boat (full skeg) but the original hypothetical question was <What would you do if your rudder fell off in a F8 mid channel?>.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Well, why not try it?

Before shouting for help I would hope to have tried everything in my arsenal first. The situation would also have to be assessed wouldn’t it. Is this current strong wind going to last for hours, days, a week. The condition of the crew, the vessel. I have transom hung rudders so hopefully the situation should not include a breach of the hull. They are smaller rudders as they are doubled, but it might be harder to emulate a single rudder and match in the second. The loss of my tie bar might be as bad a situation as losing an entire rudder.

Could I stay bare poled on a drogue or parachute until the weather changed to my favour, this would be a preferred option to calling out for help. I think you have to decide if the boat will survive it, the crew being sea sick should not be a reason to ask for a tow.

It is one that hopefully will never happen, but there are far to many buts, maybes or possibilities to make a decision in an armchair.


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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