Hypothetical question

[Peppermint]

Re:In an F8

you just became a raft & your going to be a RNLI statistic. I'd suggest that very few of the people on this forum or anywhere else, could rig a jury rudder in those conditions. Or are equiped to do the job. You can forget all that lashing a washboard to the spi pole for a start unless you want a cabin full of water and to loose the washboard that is. Sailing a modern boat without a rudder in modest sea state is pretty difficult in a channel gale it's not going to happen.

It's get the main down, show a a tiny amount of jib, MAYDAY and pray the nice men in the lifeboat get to you before the shore does.

I carry a nine foot sweep oar, if I'm going far, that will steer the boat. I doubt if it would in an F* though.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I would hope that the other one stayed on.

Though I don't know how she would steer with a single rudder, I guess I might find out one day but pray I don't have to.


I could also steer with the engines, but in a force 8 nothing is going to be easy or happen very fast, going back to my mooring yesterday, 36kts wind on the nose, she almost stopped dead as I lined up to come along side the trots, had to give stbd engine plenty of wellie (always try not to run engine on moorings side for fear of picking up rope).

Might have a play with spinny pole idea though.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Top Cat Homepage</A>

 

[AndrewB]

>>I would strongly suspect that a boat will behave much differently, especially in a F8, with the missing rudder than it will in a trial with the rudder still there (albeit not being used for steering).<<

Very true, though rudders are just as often put out of action due to a bent stock or fouling, as by dropping off altogether. So practicing with the rudder locked isn't irrelevant. Try simulating a rudder jammed hard over, that's a real swine!

A sailing dinghy seemed to me easier to steer with an oar if the rudder is removed rather than lashed, maybe similarly emergency steering works more readily on a yacht that's lost its rudder altogether. We're looking forwards to the results of your experiment /forums/images/icons/wink.gif.


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[MainlySteam]

<<<Try simulating a rudder jammed hard over, that's a real swine!>>>

Well unfortunately I don't have to simulate it as I find that when sailing on either tack I have to have the wheel over to starboard. Almost on the stops when on port tack and about half way when on starboard tack. The boat builder who built it reckons there is nothing wrong but I think that the keel is a bit kinky - when you look at it out of the water it is at an angle but the boatbuilder tells me it is supposed to be like this.

I wish I knew something more about yachts or that I was not so far away as I think the boatbuilder is telling me porkys but I don't really know. He is a very good boatbuilder and has an excellent reputation, he built some really nice sand barges for the local quarry so I expect he knows what he is doing.

What should I do? Perhaps when my rudder falls off my boat will sail straight? Do you think it might fall off? I hope not.

John

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[jimi]

Very interesting article here

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[AndrewB]

That sounds very familiar!

After we took a bashing in a storm off Portugal where we heaved-to with the rudder lashed for a couple of days, I found the rudder post (1½" diameter stainless steel) had been twisted spirally along its length by 15 degrees by the force of the seas. I took the post (detachable from the rudder) to a local machining company for a new one to be made. They gave it to the apprentice as an exercise, but somehow the message didn't quite get through. When I went to collect the apprentice was very proud of the job he'd made of it: "it was really tricky to reproduce that twist ".

The builder of my boat also did sand barges - could we have something in common?

Don't count on straight lines. Some years ago I was motoring in a long-keeled yacht in Holland when the stock broke and the rudder went completely loose, though it didn't drop off. The yacht simply circled round and round under prop-kick with the rudder flapping beneath - eventually it got close enough to a bank for me to take a flying leap ashore with a line. Give the Dutch their due ... they had us towed into Hellevoitsluis, lifted, the rudder repaired and replaced, and us on our way again the same day. If it had happened in England it would have taken a week just to arrange the lift-out.

 

[MainlySteam]

It is indeed a very interesting article. I periodically browse through the Sailnet articles but had never come across that one.

One approach is, of course, to try and prevent damage or loss of the rudder in the first place as despite how much one practices in the bay, its loss in a F8 at sea would not be quite like one imagined I would think. We were able to do that when our boat was built, but in the end even the best prepared... well you know the rest - fate cannot be beaten by good planning.

John

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[tome]

It's a good article.

Rudder failure in dirty weather is a nightmare scenario. Next to a keel-hung rudder I favour a skeg, but even this isn't bomb-proof. Our previous boat had a transom-hung rudder but I always feared that the long blade could snap in a following sea and never quite trusted it. This was reinforced when I found a yard bill for a new rudder amongst the paperwork.

There's an <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com/emergencyruddersprint.html> article on making emergency rudders </A> which makes interesting reading.

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[Mirelle]

Nearly been there, nearly done that, got towed in.

My rudder did fall off once, though not in F8.

None of the "textbook" methods of steering worked, and the unworthy thought does occur that perhaps not all of those who write this stuff have been in the situation.

Towing a bucket gives the best results over the arc of about 70 degrees either side of downwind.

Forget lashing floorboards to spinnaker poles, etc.

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[windandwave]

>Think arranging the convenient F8 and consequent seastate is the problem!

There's plenty of it around where I live this week! As for steering by balancing the rig in stronger winds: the stronger the wind gets, the more the sails predominate in any event. Even if you have a working rudder, a main pinned hard in will spin the boat to windward despite the rudder being under your chin. Consequently, balancing the sails is a necessity even for sailing with a rudder: if you're going to attempt any other sort of jury rig it becomes essential if there's to be any chance of your drogue / board on spi pole / oar / etc. working.

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[jimi]

Agree a balanced rig is essential for heavy weather sailing with a rudder. But without a rudder I think you're deluding yourself if you think you'll be able steer in heavy seas .. I find it hard enough with a rudder to avoid getting luffed up in the gusts, without a fully effective rudder I fear that luff ups will happen causing the jib to back and then ending up beam onto the sea with good potential for knock downs .. not only that I feel its vital to get the main down asap or you will inevitably gybe and potentially lose the rig as well.

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[bedouin]

Of course if you are sailing a Legend then you just scupper the boat and get a lift home on someone else's boat

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[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[jimi]

From the huntermarine report, my comment would be that I encountered considerably larger seas in a F8

On December 2, 2002, during the rally, Hunter Marine was contacted directly by the two person crew that there was a loss of rudder on the 450. Hunter Marine's customer service personnel went through the alternative steering methods regarding emergency steering in event of steering loss. This, by training of our service personnel, can be found in Offshore Special Regulation Manual, Code4.15.1B. <font color=red>The crew responded they were still having extreme difficulties in seas of four feet and winds of 25 miles per hour.</font color=red>

----On December 3, 2002, the crew called us from another near by boat the Tenacious. All hands were attempting to construct a makeshift rudder. Not knowing all the details of rudder design Hunter Marine offered the services of our naval engineer to give the needed dimensions of the rudder blade and the stock/post to insure a properly balanced replacement. Hunter Marine returned to no avail several phone calls and finally at 1:50 pm relayed that the blade was oversized and that in heavier seas the size and structure was going to fail. After a brief review by the crews of both vessels, it was decide to move ahead with the makeshift rudder as constructed.

----On December 4, 2002, F2 reported it was motorsailing and Hunter Marine again recommended not placing any more stress on this makeshift rudder and to immediately motorsail into the nearest port for the estimated fuel on board was enough for 1,000 miles. F2 decide to continue to maintain its course and continue to make its way to St. Lucia, approximately 1,600 miles away.


----Apparently, F2 did encounter heavier seas, for the weather reports at the time showed seas at five feet with moderate to heavy winds. It was then that the makeshift rudder gave way and the decision was made to abandon and scuttle the boat.


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[bedouin]

I love the way they describe "Tenacious" as "a near by boat". I would say Tenacious was large enough to qualify as a ship (Although I suppose that if we are being pedantic then then fact that she only carries square-rigged sails on two of her masts means she really ought to be called a Barque).

This "makeshift" rudder was not thrown together in the cabin of a small sailing boat, but rather the product of professional engineers with a fully equipped workshop at their disposal.

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[qsiv]

Re: Nearly been there, nearly done that, got towed in.

I cannot conceive that a pole + board would stand the loads in rough weather for more than a few minutes. Either the pole, the board or the pushpit would fail - and I doubt we could ever exert sufficient leverage to alter, or maintain cours in that sort of wind.

That leaves heaving to (if it can be accomplished w/o rudder), or making any sort of course with a drogue/drag device. I'm convinced that I would have to sit it out until the seastate eased off before much progress in any user defined direction was possible.

The worst of it woul be that the CLR has leapt forward on a modern fin and skeg boat (not yours I know), and as such controllability will be almost impossible. That does imply that heaving to might well be possible, and just gently forereaching.

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[Robin]

We listened to a Mayday off Alderney one night when a Centaur picked up a potline which then broke but left the rudder jammed hard over. All they could do was go in circles under sail or engine - Alderney Lifeboat towed them in but they were almost on the rocks before they got there!

So many possible scenarios.

Broken tiller - carry a spare or make one (did that once out of the wood base of the bosuns chair).
Broken steering cables - use the emergency tiller or the autopilot (inboard type runs on quadrant)
Broken off rudder - is there a big hole in the hull, if so don't bother trying to make a rudder!
Jammed rudder - not a lot you can do! Drogue maybe?
Broken rudder tangs/web but blade still in place - some people have a hole or notch pre-prepared in the blade to take a knotted rope run to the cockpit winches.
Jury rudders, already covered by others. We have the ingredients/tools.
Drogues seem like a good idea, buckets may last 10 minutes...
Some self steering gears like Hydovane will act as an emergency rudder. Monitor sell an emergency rudder for their windvane gear.

One of these may be the idea you wished in hindsight you had prepared ahead, but ask us the same question in 12 months time and see who has actually done something!





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[jimi]

Drogues .. I had wondered whether knotted warps might be a good substitute for drogues? and also streaming them from the beam rather than the stern might have more effect on boat balance for less drag?

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[Robin]

No idea I'm afraid! I suspect something substantial would be needed though, maybe a mini version of one of those S/S louvre type thingies sold as drogues - maybe a litlle business venture here!

Maybe sell them in pairs, each with a trip line. small units about 12" square in S/S. Patent applied for......

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[bigmart]

Re: Surely

the best method of controlling direction will vary by a massive amount depending on the design of the boat. I would guess that a long keeler would be infinitely preferable in the circumstances you describe than an ultra thin fin & skeg. May be yet another triumph for the more traditional designs than the modern lightweight speed machines.

Truth is that unless you're in the situation, for real, you will never really know.

Martin

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