Wansworth
Well-Known Member
Small hand heldrouter
Hull leaks
- Thread starter Frank mellin
- Start date
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
Humm , that photo makes your boat look like a Carvel Build not a Clincher build to me ; maybe its the camera angle showing the filling ; caus I understood that a Clincher Build the filler goes up between the planks ?
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Not boaty, but this story (Bourn Windmill: Historic mill's timber support successfully removed) gives reasons why coating wood with something impervious isn't usually a good idea. And in this case, the wood wasn't completely encapsulated, either.
wombat88
Well-Known Member
I have used a bead of Sikaflex along the seams on a clinker dinghy. Varnished over afterwards.
The beauty of this is that when varnished over, the Sikaflex appears never to dry hard (well not in seven years so far). This leaves the wood free to move should it so choose.
The beauty of this is that when varnished over, the Sikaflex appears never to dry hard (well not in seven years so far). This leaves the wood free to move should it so choose.
Keith 66
Well-Known Member
Interesting debate on use of epoxy for "encapsulation", West system stands for wood epoxy saturation technique.
Firstly anyone who has ever done a lot of work with epoxies will know that it does not saturate the timber & unless it gets to all surfaces of a piece of wood it cannot encapsulate it.
I have been restoring wooden boats a long time & have built a few cold molded ones too, im a fan of epoxy but there are times when it is not appropriate.
Take the example of a vintage Saunders launch i am rebuilding, built in 1905 using their consuta sewn plywood construction, they were noted for being very hard to repair which may explain how few of them survive.
Its light multiple skin construction would seem to be ideal for coating in epoxy & i did a lot of experimenting on her.
The boat was blasted clean & very dry, epoxy would appear to soak in well but invariably there were areas between the skins that the epoxy could not reach.
The inside of the boat was epoxied to seal it & hold the original stitching in place, the light stringers were epoxied too.
In the end i stripped off the outside layers of the hull away & laminated a new cold molded hull onto the original inside layer. In the bilge where old engine oil had soaked the timber even the inner layer was replaced.
Recently i took all the stringers out & they were easy to release from the hull, nowhere had the epoxy penetrated enough to encapulate them properly. most were cleaned & glued back in properly the bottom ones replaced.
Trouble is with existing parts frames stringers floors etc, you simply cannot clean under or between them, in any wooden boat that has ever had an engine they are certain to have been exposed to contamination from engine oil, bilge water, spilt fuel, you name it. You simply cannot expect epoxy to stick to wood like that.
I have seen more good boats killed with glass or epoxy than saved by it.
Firstly anyone who has ever done a lot of work with epoxies will know that it does not saturate the timber & unless it gets to all surfaces of a piece of wood it cannot encapsulate it.
I have been restoring wooden boats a long time & have built a few cold molded ones too, im a fan of epoxy but there are times when it is not appropriate.
Take the example of a vintage Saunders launch i am rebuilding, built in 1905 using their consuta sewn plywood construction, they were noted for being very hard to repair which may explain how few of them survive.
Its light multiple skin construction would seem to be ideal for coating in epoxy & i did a lot of experimenting on her.
The boat was blasted clean & very dry, epoxy would appear to soak in well but invariably there were areas between the skins that the epoxy could not reach.
The inside of the boat was epoxied to seal it & hold the original stitching in place, the light stringers were epoxied too.
In the end i stripped off the outside layers of the hull away & laminated a new cold molded hull onto the original inside layer. In the bilge where old engine oil had soaked the timber even the inner layer was replaced.
Recently i took all the stringers out & they were easy to release from the hull, nowhere had the epoxy penetrated enough to encapulate them properly. most were cleaned & glued back in properly the bottom ones replaced.
Trouble is with existing parts frames stringers floors etc, you simply cannot clean under or between them, in any wooden boat that has ever had an engine they are certain to have been exposed to contamination from engine oil, bilge water, spilt fuel, you name it. You simply cannot expect epoxy to stick to wood like that.
I have seen more good boats killed with glass or epoxy than saved by it.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The Stella in question has not been epoxy saturated in the way it has been done in the past. The key difference is drying the boat out so that the lands open enough to get G Flex 655 in between the planks. Then each plank is covered with a 12.5cm biaxial tape set in epoxy and painted. The interior is epoxy coated. Seems like this is the first time it has been tried which is why posted about it
Keith 66
Well-Known Member
You will invariably get areas between large bits of timber, keel, floors deadwood etc that the epoxy cannot reach & coat, they will be contaminated with oil from bilge water no matter how dry they are. There lies the entry route for water & it will swell & crack epoxy coatings no matter how well done.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Agree - but as I said the boat I am describing has not had the interior epoxied.
Keith 66
Well-Known Member
Strange, In your previous post it states that the interior was epoxy coated!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No, that is a different boat (post#41) which was epoxy coated inside and out but not sheathed outside. The owner who did it (Sam) will give you chapter and verse on how he went about it.
The more detailed explanation of the sheathed boat is in this month's Classic Boat.
The more detailed explanation of the sheathed boat is in this month's Classic Boat.
Nico90se
New Member
Hey! We just put our clinker folkboat in the water a week ago after 2 years drying out. It took up water nicely and most of the leaks have stopped. I sealed the craks and visible leaks with tät for wood (an amizing product by international available in the nordics). I could se some of the crack pushing the goo out as they sealed. We have one big issue though. On the stern, specifically where the planks meet the stern, there is quite a lot of water still flowing in. So much that the bilge pump is still working every 5 seconds. Its only on the starboard side as the port is looking really good. I just read here that I could seal it with CT1 even on the water. But I am not sure how to go about it, clinkers arent supoussed to have caluking. Should I seal it from the inside? can I apply CT1 even if it is still leaking? Any adive would be much appreciated
Hacker
Well-Known Member
You shouldn’t put anything between clinker planks, getting the 2 planks to land properly should lead to them sealing. Not sure from your description if the leak is coming from between the lands (the overlap) between 2 planks or if it is between the end of a plank and the transom. If the latter then normally some form of flexible sealant (arbomast or dolphinite as examples) would have been used before nailing/screwing the plank to the transom. Not a fan of CT1 (or equivalent) in that area as future repair becomes more difficult. We’ve just relaunched a pilot gig that had been out of the water for over 3 years. It took ages to take up and reseal the gaps. In your case I might be tempted to wait a few more weeks and see what happens. The other boatbuilding trick is to chuck a load of sawdust in the water by the leak. This gets pulled into any crack and then swells.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Bull...t
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Another ill informed post
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I had a Stella that would never have floated. I stripped it to just the hull & a couple of deck beams. It was inside my joinery works
I had it sand blasted inside & out to remove all paint. When doing this the operative came into my office very concerned that he had blown a hole right through the hull. I told him to carry on as it was Ok because I wanted all the rotten wood removed. He blew out some of the transom & the knees there.
Some of the timbers sprang away from the stem at the bow by over 18mm. as the fastenings had failed.
On examination it was impossible to tighten the roves because many were very loose & the wood was rotten around them. I could tap them in & out.
I obtained a 6mm thick carving disc to fit a 4 inch angle grinder. This I used to run along the planks to form a 6* 6 groove in the lands. It took 2 days to groove the entire boat.
The planks that had sprung were screwed back into place over west resin.
Holes were patched with new timber were scarfed in & new knees fitted.
I repaired 12 broken ribs in a single Saturday afternoon on my own. I had the machinery & english oak all ready & the job was a doddle.
Once the wood was sound I used west resin with filler & using a putty knife with a rounded point I filled all the 6mm grooves in the lands. That took 3 of us 2-3 days.
But the resin was formed into a nice fillet so that the final sheathing had a rounded internal angle to bed to.
Wessex resins sold me a comercial resin that I could only use with an air assisted head set. It went on inside the hull & really went deep into the wood as it had seeking properties. When Tucker Brown built the boat it was obvious that it had very small woodworm holes in the planks that we had not been able to see.
The resin actually came out through the hull via these holes. When I drilled holes for the chain plates it was obvious that the resin had gone well into the wood & not just on the surface.
Following all this I sheathed the outside in 300grm matt laid diagonally. Doubled at the chain plates & quarters & bow. Then when I put the decks on I did those as well.
I did lots of other stuff but finished in 2000. The boat did not leak a single drop on launch. As far as I am aware It does not leak to this day
The work was done with the wessex rep making regular visits to advise on the processes & he said it was the first one that he had seen done so successfully
I had it sand blasted inside & out to remove all paint. When doing this the operative came into my office very concerned that he had blown a hole right through the hull. I told him to carry on as it was Ok because I wanted all the rotten wood removed. He blew out some of the transom & the knees there.
Some of the timbers sprang away from the stem at the bow by over 18mm. as the fastenings had failed.
On examination it was impossible to tighten the roves because many were very loose & the wood was rotten around them. I could tap them in & out.
I obtained a 6mm thick carving disc to fit a 4 inch angle grinder. This I used to run along the planks to form a 6* 6 groove in the lands. It took 2 days to groove the entire boat.
The planks that had sprung were screwed back into place over west resin.
Holes were patched with new timber were scarfed in & new knees fitted.
I repaired 12 broken ribs in a single Saturday afternoon on my own. I had the machinery & english oak all ready & the job was a doddle.
Once the wood was sound I used west resin with filler & using a putty knife with a rounded point I filled all the 6mm grooves in the lands. That took 3 of us 2-3 days.
But the resin was formed into a nice fillet so that the final sheathing had a rounded internal angle to bed to.
Wessex resins sold me a comercial resin that I could only use with an air assisted head set. It went on inside the hull & really went deep into the wood as it had seeking properties. When Tucker Brown built the boat it was obvious that it had very small woodworm holes in the planks that we had not been able to see.
The resin actually came out through the hull via these holes. When I drilled holes for the chain plates it was obvious that the resin had gone well into the wood & not just on the surface.
Following all this I sheathed the outside in 300grm matt laid diagonally. Doubled at the chain plates & quarters & bow. Then when I put the decks on I did those as well.
I did lots of other stuff but finished in 2000. The boat did not leak a single drop on launch. As far as I am aware It does not leak to this day
The work was done with the wessex rep making regular visits to advise on the processes & he said it was the first one that he had seen done so successfully
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
About 75% of the XOD fleet is done much like DDB‘s Stella. And have been for a number of years. They don’t seem to die.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I think that one should remember that whilst a hull will take up when upright, in the water it will be different, once under sail & heeled over. The topsides may be exposed to bright sunlight, Movement may crack the painted surface & the seams could begin to let in water .
DownWest
Well-Known Member
I mentioned before a nice '39 36ft cutter, carvel planked and painted black. He had it in Vilamoura for a while, then decided to go up the Guardiana, I noticed the heat had opened her up a bit.. Engine didn't want to start (battery) so he tried to sail in against a falling tide. Touched and stuck; laid over and the gaps in the topside flooded her. What he was thinking of, trying that... esp. as one of the original guys in Wooden Ships brokerage.
No insurance cover , so lost it.
debenriver
Well-Known Member
Where the planks land on the transom, specially at the tuck where the transom blends into the sternpost, they can be difficult to seal and won't always take up. For this season, if you can pull the bow down enough to get the area above water, then gently rake out any loose stopping between the planks and the transom first, and use a putty knife to trowel in some International seam compound (the red underwater version) . You could also trowel a bead of the same stuff to form a small fillet along the plank lands for, say, 200mm forward from the transom.
If this fixes it, then when you haul again you can look at the area and do a more permanent job. The seam compound will stay soft enough to clean off OK.
Cheers -- George
DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
Interesting. So the outside was sheathed with glass and resin, but inside the hull was simply treated with resin- no glass.
I’m thinking about going to take a look at a boat, with a view to buying. This too has glass/epoxy on the exterior but not inside. Carvel built, copper riveted. Nervous.
