dancrane
Well-known member
I always fly, and I reckon LJs are supplied. The girls in crew-uniform always seems to be showing theirs off. Not sure why though - hard to think how it would help after a crash. 
How often do you wear your life jacket?
- Thread starter Halcyon Yachts
- Start date
Elessar
Well-known member
I always fly, and I reckon LJs are supplied. The girls in crew-uniform always seems to be showing theirs off. Not sure why though - hard to think how it would help after a crash.
You see the point though surely. Most wear a pfd in a dinghy, few in a ferry. Where the cut off is depends on so many factors. Whether you wear it or not should be your choice. Whether I do should not.
Robin
Well-known member
I always fly, and I reckon LJs are supplied. The girls in crew-uniform always seems to be showing theirs off. Not sure why though - hard to think how it would help after a crash.
Maybe wearing the supplied lifejackets should be compulsory once the plane gets over water? 'only effective when worn'.
Robin
Well-known member
Bugger the ferry, I would wear one on a White Star Lines Titanic cruise or on whatever that italian cruise ship was called., I bet it's Capitano Magnifico had his LJ on doublequick.:disgust:
dancrane
Well-known member
Maybe the ones on planes aren't life-jackets at all, but air-bags? :biggrin-new:
I'm not sure why you thought I was choosing anything for anyone other than myself? I didn't know I had such power! How exciting.
Some poor bastard is sure to drown this summer, within moments of falling in. I wish it wasn't likely, but it's very predictable simply because it's so damned unpredictable.
A PFD is all we have, when we've done our best to avoid foreseeable risk. But a PFD's no good either if it's in a locker because the skipper hadn't predicted what happened next.
Signing off now. Long may you all be lucky. :encouragement:
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
OOps sorry I have read that 3 times and still have no idea what you meant!
My previous posting appeared twice, exactly the same. #61 and #62. I have now realised, by the way, that the "Posts" count at the top right is the total the author has made to date, not at the time of posting.
Robin
Well-known member
I think I guessed a double post so was just trying to be funny. SWMBO says my sense of humour is lost on her too.:ambivalence:
But back to the original discussion. Other than when I was racing dinghies 50 years back and always wore a slim buoyancy aid that I could swim in and right a capsized dinghy and climb back in whilst wearing it I have been very lax about wearing lifejackets on board big boats. In my dinghy race days buoyancy aids were a club rule generally when racing and in any even acted as bruise protection padding for the wearer after a cockup. I wore one again many years later when attempting to master the art of sailboarding and again the bruise protection feature was appreciated. My first real big boat experiences came in and after the 1962 tall ships race with OYC where ancient kapok LJs were provided and we were taught how to tie a safety tether bowline around oursaelves. When a few years later I bought my own small cruisers I still had the dinghy buoyancy aids which were carried but not worn. Later still and by then on bigger/better boats I had proper LJs for myself, the then SWMBO and the kids but they were worn little although we had safety harnesses that were worn in bad conditions if we felt the need. In latter years the harnesses were always first choice although on our last two boats ( a W33 centre cockpit ketch and Sun Legende 41 sloop cruiser/racer) over 25 years we could handle pretty much everything without ever leaving the cockpit with roller genoas and slab reefing lines all taken back to the cockpit. We lived on a 47ft trawler motoryacht for a year with very protected decks and no need for deck antics underway anyway. Even after my stroke I still felt secure enough on deck not to wear lJs or harness in the local waters here of the ICW. We sold the mobo and bought a centre cockpit Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, with a roller genoa natch, but also my first ever in-mast furling mainsail . we have a substantial S?s framework that is the basis for the full cockpit enclosure/bimini/sprayhood/dodger and is like a safety roll cage. We have fully auto PFDs with built in harnesses and these will be worn when out at sea proper, less likely however when just playing locally in the ICW or 'the Ditch'. We carry a very full inventory of USCG approved LJs as we are required to do so and have a second inventory of these specifically for our tender which is a 3.10m RIB with a 9.9hp motor. We ourselves have simpler mouth inflatable compact LJs for dinghy use that are small enough to stow or hide from tea leaves in it's underseat bag when we are off doing the touristy things somewhere ashore. I can forsee maybe using the LJs/ harnesses routinely in any chop notably if out in in the Gulf stream wind over current conditions but even post stroke have no paranoia of falling overboard. I have a dedicated pee bucket on a line in the cockpit so my older habit of piddling over the stern under way or whilst leaning into a sheeted in genoa when closehauled will be a safety move of note. OUR RIB tender is carried in davits on the stern and getting in/out is aided by multiple handholds of the davit arms and supports themselves or their lift lines. Knowing that their are sharks in the open sea waters ( a tagged great white with attached GPS transmitter is currently hovering a mile or two out) and 'gators in the brackish parts of the ICW definitely concentrates the mind in staying on board. :nonchalance:
So if you hadn't already guessed I'm not a modern Elf 'n Safety freak but continue to exercise my own judgment of risks . Perhaps when this subject arises again, as it most surely will, I might have changed my mind but in the meantime I do not want to be legislated or morally blackmailed into it Irish regulation ( or BBC presenter) style. [/rant]
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chrishscorp
Well-known member
Four of us took out a 36 foot moody in November of last year, all wore LJ from the moment we got on board had a really nice weekend sail, came back moored up against a pontoon jackets off had a meal, cleaned up the boat, I went on deck to empty a saucepan over the side, still have no idea how it happened, i slipped and ended up with foot wedged under the jib sheet with the crook of my knee hung up on the guard rail with me suspended upside down watching the tide go out at 5 knots. If i had gone in as i was, fully dressed and with boots and salopettes I am pretty sure i would not be here now.
All three down below had not even heard what happened, just very glad i chose the pontoon side
Life Jackets on, when on deck at all times
All three down below had not even heard what happened, just very glad i chose the pontoon side
Life Jackets on, when on deck at all times
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
My rule for my small crew member is "lifejacket on at all times when outside the cabin; clip on unless the boat is attached to land" with in both cases an additional "or whenever I say so".
fireball
New member
Because that is the danger of "no brainer" ... you forget why doing it ...
A buoyancy aid will NOT keep your head above water - if you get KO'd and fall overboard you're likely to drown - TBH, in a dinghy, getting hit by the boom is one of the most obvious hazards and that could easily knock you out - you wouldn't be panicking .... !! And that's the problem with your "No Brainer" - it seems you haven't considered that possibility.
You seem to think that I'm suggesting you don't wear a buoyancy aid or lifejacket - that's just not true - I just believe you need to know WHY you are wearing it and don't become complaisant whilst wearing it.
Looking at your situation - a singlehanded sailor in a two man dinghy you have a higher chance of incident. Assuming you sail down into the main harbour and not necessarily at busy times there will be chances when you'll be alone on the water. Your biggest risk is falling in the water and losing contact with your boat - a small head in the water is hard to spot, a capsized dinghy is much easier - if you do that near East Head on a spring ebb tide then there's a strong possibility of you being swept out of the harbour. Your chances of survival will depend on you having the presence of mind to swim across the current to shore - so you'll need to know where the eddies are to know which shore to head for - or hope that someone spots you.
With 30+ years experience of sailing dinghies I've been in the water and lost contact with the dinghy, I've also had occasions where I've struggled to stay holding onto the dinghy whilst moving around to the centerboard - the risk to me has usually been low because it's normally whilst racing and we have a safety boat that could help (and has done!) or call emergency services if they couldn't. The times I have gone out we've told other people where we're going and what time we expect to be back. These days I'd take a HH VHF too. Falling in the water shouldn't be an unexpected event - it may be an uncontrolled event, but you should be expecting it. I can only recall one unexpected dunking - that was when I was 10 - the rest (as far as I can recall) have been anticipated despite not being able to prevent them.
But why do we all need to wear seatbelts? Because there are so many chances of accidents - accidents are usually because someone is driving too fast or too close for the conditions - if everyone slowed down a bit then the chances of accidents would be greatly reduced and the need to wear a seatbelt removed.
Anyway - there are exemptions from the legal requirement to wear a seatbelt - ask yourself why they should be exempt ...
It's not an either or - you should take all reasonable steps towards preventing the need to use buoyancy - but to do that you need to know the risks, and as I keep saying "I always wear a lifejacket" can make people complacent - they forget the risks...
Ah - morning ...
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Cheburator
New member
I don't wear jeans either, but I don't relish the idea of trying to swim with my MPXs on or Ocean boots, which turn into anchors.
If I slip off the pontoon, it is still in a reasonably controlled environment. Not saying that it is not dangerous, but the sequence usually runs - get on board, go down below right away, get changed and put the LJs on. Only then venture back on deck to get the boat ready to cast off. Plus, the idea of carrying the LJs with us back to London every time somewhat does not appeal...
No, cannot do. The engine controls are down below and although we have full lazy jacks, they are stowed away while sailing. Lastly, being a full blown racer, "Red Machine" has a slotted mast, which makes dumping the main a bit more demanding
When in Croatia there are usually 4 of us on board, no kids and all with thousands of miles worth of experience. If the weather is 25+ Celcius and the water temp is 20+, it means I am wearing a pair of shorts and probably a pair of flip-flops. If I am to go in the drink, unless being hit by the boom, chances are I would have a nice swim, the other 3 monkeys can dump the kicker, start the engine from the cockpit, lower the bathing platform and get me back on board. If the bura is howling, of course we will all be wearing the LJs all the time, despite the general warm weather. I hope you can see the difference...
fireball
New member
Those don't take long to kick off ...
Perhaps you should look at the statistics - people falling off pontoons seems to be a regular occurrence - but your situation will be dependant on the sorts of conditions you go down (cold and wet being the most likely time to fall off ... ) TBH, taking lifejackets home is an inconvenience ... that's a load of rot if you then say "you must always wear a lifejacket in the solent" ...
Perhaps you should get a AWB then ...
Yes - I can - I hope you can too ...
When I was sailing in the Solent it was in a 30 or 37' AWB - Easy access to engine controls and a crew who was not distracted by children or pets - we usually sailed in fair weather and as both of us are active dinghy racers, a gentle sail in the cruiser was not taxing - those were some of our reasons for not always bothering to wear a lifejacket - I hope you can see the difference!
Cheburator
New member
Those don't take long to kick off ...
Perhaps you should look at the statistics - people falling off pontoons seems to be a regular occurrence - but your situation will be dependant on the sorts of conditions you go down (cold and wet being the most likely time to fall off ... ) TBH, taking lifejackets home is an inconvenience ... that's a load of rot if you then say "you must always wear a lifejacket in the solent" ...
Perhaps you should get a AWB then ...
Yes - I can - I hope you can too ...
When I was sailing in the Solent it was in a 30 or 37' AWB - Easy access to engine controls and a crew who was not distracted by children or pets - we usually sailed in fair weather and as both of us are active dinghy racers, a gentle sail in the cruiser was not taxing - those were some of our reasons for not always bothering to wear a lifejacket - I hope you can see the difference!
Generally I am in agreement with you and I am not saying that one MUST always wear a LJ while in the Solent. It is just my specific circumstances, where I think we MUST always wear one when on the boat. "Cru"s and the new "Spinlock" are surprisingly comfortable and unobtrusive. The only time I have struggled with them is when fully crewed racing and having to hike.
As to getting a AWB - no way - the JOD 35 is a very comfortable boat for 4, easily sleeps 6, is rated for 8, it is a pleasure to sail short handed and is very simple to maintain.
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fireball
New member
That's fine - as I've previously stated - I have no problem with people wearing LJs if they want to - what annoys me is the "It's a no-brainer" statements, and inference that those of us who chose when to wear safety gear are somewhat putting ourselves at unnecessary risk ..
Just adds to the argument that there is no one right answer ... steve jones
Member
I work in construction, an industry that used to regularly kill workers. Construction is still potentially dangerous but the risk is much better managed these days.
The way this works is that you figure out how likely is it that the bad thing will happen and how serious it would be if it did. So in anything other than calm seas during the day with switched on crew left on board the seriousness of going over board is probably going to be as serious as it gets. So, it's only ok to not wear a life-jacket if you can reduce the likelihood of going over to near zero. i.e. below deck or in a well protected cockpit.
Going over at night in even moderate seas is going to put you in very serious trouble. Another way to look at it is to imagine that rather than being on a boat a few feet above sea level you are sitting on the roof of a caravan which is perched on top of a 10 meter tall scaffold tower.... and its a bit windy... now how do we feel about clipping on?
The way this works is that you figure out how likely is it that the bad thing will happen and how serious it would be if it did. So in anything other than calm seas during the day with switched on crew left on board the seriousness of going over board is probably going to be as serious as it gets. So, it's only ok to not wear a life-jacket if you can reduce the likelihood of going over to near zero. i.e. below deck or in a well protected cockpit.
Going over at night in even moderate seas is going to put you in very serious trouble. Another way to look at it is to imagine that rather than being on a boat a few feet above sea level you are sitting on the roof of a caravan which is perched on top of a 10 meter tall scaffold tower.... and its a bit windy... now how do we feel about clipping on?
RupertW
Well-known member
But this is a sport not an industry with employees and obligations. I think sailing should always include assessing the changing risks but may balance them against fun. I think it is sensible to decide to up the risk of death if it also increases the fun element, but always be aware you are doing it. After all it's more risky to overnight at sea than sleep in your bed at home but the fun makes the extra risk worth it.
So for me the balance is that at night, when rough (a subjective judgement call), or when leaving the cockpit under sail, I usually put the harness on which includes a life jacket. When romping along downwind in a Force 5 and hot sunshine through a warm sea I find it much more fun to just wear a pair of shorts and enjoy the open air. In rainy cold Force 5 conditions I'll be wearing waterproofs anyway so the harness on top doesn't spoil anything. However I have different rules for young or very inexperienced guests where safety overrides my perception of fun much more.
