How much solar do you have?

[Neeves]

In case anyone does not understand what a 'cranked' pylon might look like this is a sideview of Josepheline with the wind gen on the transom on its cranked pylon and well away from solar panels 'and straying hands'

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

We used to have a wind generator, mounted up on the mizzen mast. Useless when sailing, as the whole shebang would rotate. Noisy, not that it made a huge lot of noise, but being mounted directly above the aft cabin, the noise was very noticable when trying to sleep, when everything else is quiet. Being mounted on the mizzen, well up out of reach, meant that it could not be physically controlled. One day, when at anchor (it doesn't matter what type) in a gale of wind, the generator began to vibrate seriously. Presumably it had shed a blade. It literally threw a wobbly, and disintegrated. Fortunately most of it went straight over the side, but a large chunk of heavy material (magnet?) seriously damaged part of the stainless bulwark rail. It could have killed one of us.
I replaced it with one 100W solar panel, now increased to 180W. Totally silent, no moving parts, comparatively dirt cheap, and far better output. I would never ever go back to a wind driven generator

 

[Refueler]

Pal of mine with a large boat - had wind generator on post aft ....

We all used to ask him for wind strength - he would answer in form of example : Today its 6A ... maybe dropping to 1A later ...

 

[B27]

One reason solar is rated more highly than wind is because the cost of solar has dropped and become more efficient and wind has remained the same. Go back 20 years and solar was expensive. And for the China bashers - one reason solar is cheap is because its now almost exclusively made in China, 20 years ago the best solar was from Germany. Now, without searching for the Best Buy, I can buy a folding 250 watt solar panel with regulator for stg80, including tax, and a flexible 200 watt panel with a 10m extension cord for slightly less, stg75. I'm sure if I shopped around I could reduce these prices (our tax is 10%)

You only need 3 days of bad weather and wind makes an interesting contribution, particularly when at sea. The advantage of wind is - it takes up no space but if you choose judiciously it will convert to a hydro gen. Our Aero4aquagen makes 10 amps at 10 knots in hydro mode, and at night - we would not be without it. We only wish we had bought the bigger model and 2 of them (the unit is now 25 years old).

We are on our third generation of, flexible, solar panels - yes the wind/hydro gen is, was, much more expensive but do the costs over 25 years and you might come to a different conclusion. That 250 watt folding panel is cheap as chips but it only works in daylight hours (and not all of them) and will it last 25 years and counting?

Again - horses for courses.

Jonathan

There's still a market for small wind generators, you see them on the road side and in remote places powering things like monitoring equipment, alongside a small solar panel.
A chap in our moorings has a wid generator, it does keep his batteries topped up, but it makes more noise than a decent diesel generator. It works OK because we are on a river in a valley and the wind often funnels along the valley.

There are a lot of cheap solar panels on the market.
Many are simply fraudulently advertised as being more powerful than they are.
Many of those are just too small to have the claimed power output.
In general, anything much below about £1 per watt seems to be suspect?
With flexible panels being a premium. With as you say, a short life expectancy.

I recently bought a panel advertised as 50W, the most I can get out of it is about 30W.
It was under £15 with one of those comedy regulators, I will use it to evaluate my regulator at home and maybe power some garden lights or a bit of winter float charging.

Hydrogenerators don't really seem to have a place in the average cruising monohull The power available being proportional to V cubed, at 5 knots it's just an expensive way of catching weed. Multihulls, open 60s etc more likely a place for it.

 

[Stemar]

I recently bought a panel advertised as 50W, the most I can get out of it is about 30W.
It was under £15 with one of those comedy regulators,

If you need a 30w panel, that's still not a bad price.

 

[B27]

If you need a 30w panel, that's still not a bad price.

It's good value if it lasts a few seasons.
But it takes up the space of an actual 50W panel.

I'm still undecided about where I can usefully put panels which won't get in the way.

 

[Refueler]

My considered intention on my 25ft boat is to move the small panel I have clipped to pushpit rail - to an arch. Its long been a wish to have one on the boat as its no racer and an arch will only add advantage. I can have so much mounted there .. which would be another small panel same as first.

Pal of mine bought a single panel then realised when he took to his 31ft boat ... UGH !! Where to mount ... so he made up a temp arch ... its awful !! Not the arch - its the panel ... it dominates an already crap cockpit ...

When he saw my small panel AND that it trickle charged my 2 lead acids fine ... he was visibly annoyed with himself ...

If my small panel does its job - why more ? Being small and able to clip to standard rail ... if I add another same and parallel - I can have the increased output - but without the awkward panel size ... the two sitting on an arch would be unobtrusive ..... and still arch available for other items.

I note another post where they mention : "one of those comedy regulators" .... interested to know what regulator - maybe a photo ?

I ask because I was concerned that the regulator supplied with my panel would be cheap crap ... it was cheap - as it was included with the panel. But its far from being crap ... in fact its dual output ... LED's showing state of each battery independently ... digital display of User adjustable settings. Compared to the expensive brand NATS controller on my 38 - its better ! The NATS only has LED and single output with no settings adjustment.

I'm sure someones now going to come on and say its crap ... well .. its been on board and working well for reasonable time and never given cause to doubt ...
In fact I am considering removing the NATS from the 38 and replacing with the single output version I have also - with all same user setting / display + dual USB etc. etc.

 

[Kelpie]

In general, anything much below about £1 per watt seems to be suspect?

This night be true on small panels, but when you start looking at larger panels the cost is substantially below £1/w. And that's for reputable makes and suppliers.
E.g. Longi Solar Panel PV Module 405WP Full Black LR5-54HIB-405M

I recently bought a panel advertised as 50W, the most I can get out of it is about 30W.

Maybe you are expecting too much. You'll only get the full 50w under ideal conditions- absolute full sun, low temperature, and a half full battery able to gobble up the amps.
My main array is 930w, so in theory I should be seeing 77.5A at 12v. In practice it tops out at about 50A most of the time.

 

[Refueler]

I'm not a real solar user ... but am involved with solar business with my accounts manager ....

The quoted wattage - we regard as only achievable in lab test ... so when a client wants his roof covered in panels and says what power he needs - its usual to double that figure to achieve what he wants. Client of course then questions it - saying that leaflets / online sales blurb etc. says xxx ...
It can be taxing sometimes getting factual across.

I regard similar to our boating ... if pane is advertised at 50W ... I reckon it may be good for up to 25W ... at least that way - I am at advantage if it does better.

 

[B27]

This night be true on small panels, but when you start looking at larger panels the cost is substantially below £1/w. And that's for reputable makes and suppliers.
E.g. Longi Solar Panel PV Module 405WP Full Black LR5-54HIB-405M


Maybe you are expecting too much. You'll only get the full 50w under ideal conditions- absolute full sun, low temperature, and a half full battery able to gobble up the amps.
My main array is 930w, so in theory I should be seeing 77.5A at 12v. In practice it tops out at about 50A most of the time.

Yes domestic sized panels are a bit cheaper, even som that's a good price,
Looking for 'known brand' flexible or 'yacht sized' panels, I'd be interested to know about anything much below £1 a watt. I got my 50W panel from LowEnergy Supermarket on ebay for a bit under £50.

The '30W' I quote is actually 1.6 amps or so. If you want to compare panels, not batteries or regulators, then current into about 18V will be fairly close to the peak power current and not hugely different to the current direct into a battery. It's a crude like for like comaprison where my actual 50W panel does 2.8 Amps. That's aligned to the sun with no clouds., moving it around to see the best current on a multimeter.

 

[B27]

I'm not a real solar user ... but am involved with solar business with my accounts manager ....

The quoted wattage - we regard as only achievable in lab test ... so when a client wants his roof covered in panels and says what power he needs - its usual to double that figure to achieve what he wants. Client of course then questions it - saying that leaflets / online sales blurb etc. says xxx ...
It can be taxing sometimes getting factual across.

I regard similar to our boating ... if pane is advertised at 50W ... I reckon it may be good for up to 25W ... at least that way - I am at advantage if it does better.

My 50w panel will do 2.8A or even a bit more direct into the house battery, if aligned. I could use a MPPT converter to improve that a little
Normally I leave it roughly horizontal when at anchor or on a swinging mooring, it probably averages 25W for several hours of a sunny day. At noon it can be doing better than 2A into 14.5V.

When it comes to 'achieving what you need' then typical yield for well-sited UK panels on building is equivalent to about 1,000 hours sun.
So a panel averages about 10% of it nominal, but that might be 20% in July and 5 % in January.
On a yacht there are more variables, we don't have a permanent south-facing roof slope.

The question is, what can we budget for on cloudier days, an average week's cruise etc?

 

[geem]

There's still a market for small wind generators, you see them on the road side and in remote places powering things like monitoring equipment, alongside a small solar panel.
A chap in our moorings has a wid generator, it does keep his batteries topped up, but it makes more noise than a decent diesel generator. It works OK because we are on a river in a valley and the wind often funnels along the valley.

There are a lot of cheap solar panels on the market.
Many are simply fraudulently advertised as being more powerful than they are.
Many of those are just too small to have the claimed power output.
In general, anything much below about £1 per watt seems to be suspect?
With flexible panels being a premium. With as you say, a short life expectancy.

I recently bought a panel advertised as 50W, the most I can get out of it is about 30W.
It was under £15 with one of those comedy regulators, I will use it to evaluate my regulator at home and maybe power some garden lights or a bit of winter float charging.

Hydrogenerators don't really seem to have a place in the average cruising monohull The power available being proportional to V cubed, at 5 knots it's just an expensive way of catching weed. Multihulls, open 60s etc more likely a place for it.

My pal has just installed solar on his house. Thr solar panels are 430w. £135 each!
My 4x180w framed panels on the boat were £120 each. They exceed their rated output sometimes. They are 5 years old.
In my experience, cheap flexible panels are often junk and don't last long in a marine environment. By comparison, I haven't come across a framed panel that hasn't performed well.
Our hydro generator can kick out 240Ah/day. We don't have an Open 60 or a multihull

 

[B27]

...

I note another post where they mention : "one of those comedy regulators" .... interested to know what regulator - maybe a photo ?


I'm sure someones now going to come on and say its crap ... well .. its been on board and working well for reasonable time and never given cause to doubt ...
In fact I am considering removing the NATS from the 38 and replacing with the single output version I have also - with all same user setting / display + dual USB etc. etc.

There are thousands of ebay listings for cheap sdolar regulators e.g.
Solar Panel 30A 20A 10A Battery Charge Controller 12V/24V LCD Regulator Dual USB | eBay
is similar to what I have.
They are crude things which just switch the solar on and off at quite slow intervals to control battery voltage, often with strange voltage targets.
They are mostly intended for daily charging of things like solar powered lights.
Whatever voltage settings I use on mine, it seems to try to overcharge the batteries ifI leave the boat unused for a few sunny days.
My mate has one which looks identical but seems to have slightly different firmware in it.

 

[B27]

My pal has just installed solar on his house. Thr solar panels are 430w. £135 each!
My 4x180w framed panels on the boat were £120 each. They exceed their rated output sometimes. They are 5 years old.
In my experience, cheap flexible panels are often junk and don't last long in a marine environment. By comparison, I haven't come across a framed panel that hasn't performed well.
Our hydro generator can kick out 240Ah/day. We don't have an Open 60 or a multihull

What speed for 10A? And what did the hydro generator cost?

 

[Refueler]

There are thousands of ebay listings for cheap sdolar regulators e.g.
Solar Panel 30A 20A 10A Battery Charge Controller 12V/24V LCD Regulator Dual USB | eBay
is similar to what I have.
They are crude things which just switch the solar on and off at quite slow intervals to control battery voltage, often with strange voltage targets.
They are mostly intended for daily charging of things like solar powered lights.
Whatever voltage settings I use on mine, it seems to try to overcharge the batteries ifI leave the boat unused for a few sunny days.
My mate has one which looks identical but seems to have slightly different firmware in it.

Your link shows similar items to mine ... so far I have no problem with them at all ...

I would not be surprised to find simple switching inside .. blimey at the price they ask - I don't expect extreme high tech.

PWM - Pulse Width Modulation ... basically controlling by the application of timed width to the pulse ... would imply that controller is not altering the voltage - but altering the time its applied.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Cheap solar panels and controllers on the likes of Ebay are typically rubbish, with poor output, low life expectancy and controllers that don't cgarge reliably, putting batteries at risk.

Good quality panels and controllers cost a bit more but work much better, last much longer and are, over time, vastly better value.

 

[Refueler]

Cheap solar panels and controllers on the likes of Ebay are typically rubbish, with poor output, low life expectancy and controllers that don't cgarge reliably, putting batteries at risk.

Good quality panels and controllers cost a bit more but work much better, last much longer and are, over time, vastly better value.

For what I need - 45 quid eBay combo is good enough ....

But of course - that is not what serious users would go for - accepted.

 

[geem]

What speed for 10A? And what did the hydro generator cost?

The Duogen cost £1500 twenty years ago. It's done 5 Atlantic crossings with me. It's a wind/hydro unit. I much prefer it in hydro mode. At the time, solar was still expensive. Ours is pretty worn out. It will do its final trip across the pond next year, then we will retire it for good.
With the increasing use of lithium I think wind turbines will gradually become things of the past. Lithium has a 20% better charge acceptance rate than lead so your solar effectively increases by 20% without doing anything. Wind turbines are noisy and they need maintenance.
Over here in the Caribbean we see less and less wind turbines. A few people have the What and Sea hydrogenerator, but they are not common.
On a long passage we won't use the induction cooker or make water, so our daily demand for amps will diminish. Our solar keeps up pretty well except with a few days of cloud and shading from the sails.

 

[B27]

Your link shows similar items to mine ... so far I have no problem with them at all ...

I would not be surprised to find simple switching inside .. blimey at the price they ask - I don't expect extreme high tech.

PWM - Pulse Width Modulation ... basically controlling by the application of timed width to the pulse ... would imply that controller is not altering the voltage - but altering the time its applied.

I'm more used to industrial 'PWM' controllers which control things like efficient motor drives.
PWM DC-DC convertors can be sophisticated, efficient things. And very cheap too.
There's generally an inductor or transformer in there to convert voltage.

For sure, I'm not expecting a lot, I just want the solar to shut off before overcharging the battery or over-volt stressing anything connected to it.
My cheap solar controller seems to have killed a 12V to USB convertor.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm more used to industrial 'PWM' controllers which control things like efficient motor drives.
PWM DC-DC convertors can be sophisticated, efficient things. And very cheap too.
There's generally an inductor or transformer in there to convert voltage.

For sure, I'm not expecting a lot, I just want the solar to shut off before overcharging the battery or over-volt stressing anything connected to it.
My cheap solar controller seems to have killed a 12V to USB convertor.

I rest my case.