fireball
New member
That'll be your bang on your 'ead then .... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
How can you easily identify a narrow channel?
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
Andrew_Fanner
New member
Does narrow channel have any depth element, or is it assumed as "deep enough edge to edge"? The Thames has clearly defined edges but the actual navigable bit might not reach those edges, unless you have a centreplate you can raise. Ditto somewhere like Bembridge entrance at half tide or squeezing between the moorings Itchenor way.
Were I to hoist a black cylinder in the forepart of the vessel how many Chi Harbour dinghy sailors would know what it meant. I know I would not have done when I was one of them
Were I to hoist a black cylinder in the forepart of the vessel how many Chi Harbour dinghy sailors would know what it meant. I know I would not have done when I was one of them
fireball
New member
Good point .... I was really referring my thoughts to buoyed channels, but having said that some of the channel markers dryout - especially at Bembridge!!
The Chichester harbour authority has already defined any fairway with moorings to be a narrow channel ... so no need to worry about that one!
As for the black cylinder ... I doubt it - I saw a dive boat flying the diver down flag last year - and still some of the racing fleet passed (IMO) too close.
The Chichester harbour authority has already defined any fairway with moorings to be a narrow channel ... so no need to worry about that one!
As for the black cylinder ... I doubt it - I saw a dive boat flying the diver down flag last year - and still some of the racing fleet passed (IMO) too close.
Boathook
Well-known member
Being a multihull owner I would think that length plus beam times 2.5 would be acceptable or some other variation of the formula.
bilbobaggins
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
especially when the kite is up and I'm doing 15-20 knots in the harbour!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Rule 6 , mush!
Hit me at 20 knots in a harbour and expect, at the very least, a private prosecution.
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
especially when the kite is up and I'm doing 15-20 knots in the harbour!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Rule 6 , mush!
Hit me at 20 knots in a harbour and expect, at the very least, a private prosecution.
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
fireball
New member
Fred Thrift!! we're talking definitions of narrow channels not how fast the racing dinghies travel!
Lizzie_B
New member
S'right /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
bilbobaggins
N/A
If it isn't defined in the IMO ColRegs, or in another competent authority such as Harbour Regulations, then it would need to be referred to a Court of Law for a decision. And that would probably need an 'incident'.
There are lots of 'legal beagles' who sail - a look at the memebership list of just about any of the Senior Clubs will show a jumble of judges. So of these codgers can be relied upon to be curmudgeonly about 'reckless and irresponsible use of speed and a total absence of care for the rights of others'....
So, see you in court.....?
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
There are lots of 'legal beagles' who sail - a look at the memebership list of just about any of the Senior Clubs will show a jumble of judges. So of these codgers can be relied upon to be curmudgeonly about 'reckless and irresponsible use of speed and a total absence of care for the rights of others'....
So, see you in court.....?
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
fireball
New member
Why? Whose on trial? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
G
Guest
Guest
I've just vacated Chi Hbr and was not aware that the speed limit was only applicable to power boats ......... as far as I was aware it applied to all boats - but in practical terms dinghys etc were ignored.
EG - my Motor Sailer 25ft can do 9 kn throttle wide ..
EG - my Motor Sailer 25ft can do 9 kn throttle wide ..
peterb
New member
[ QUOTE ]
If it isn't defined in the IMO ColRegs, or in another competent authority such as Harbour Regulations, then it would need to be referred to a Court of Law for a decision. And that would probably need an 'incident'.
There are lots of 'legal beagles' who sail - a look at the memebership list of just about any of the Senior Clubs will show a jumble of judges. So of these codgers can be relied upon to be curmudgeonly about 'reckless and irresponsible use of speed and a total absence of care for the rights of others'....
[/ QUOTE ]
There have been lots of court cases about Rule 9 and what constitutes a narrow channel. The simple rule is that any channel bounded by navigation marks (buoys or beacons) is automatically a narrow channel. But it doesn't always apply. One case covered the channel into Wooton Creek, near Ryde. One of the ferries claimed that being bounded by marks (beacons, in this case) the channel must be a narrow channel. The other side pointed out that ferries passing each other frequently went outside the beacons, so that the beacons could not be considered as bounding the channel. The ferry lost.
Reference: "Marsden on Collisions", 2003 edition (from memory).
If it isn't defined in the IMO ColRegs, or in another competent authority such as Harbour Regulations, then it would need to be referred to a Court of Law for a decision. And that would probably need an 'incident'.
There are lots of 'legal beagles' who sail - a look at the memebership list of just about any of the Senior Clubs will show a jumble of judges. So of these codgers can be relied upon to be curmudgeonly about 'reckless and irresponsible use of speed and a total absence of care for the rights of others'....
[/ QUOTE ]
There have been lots of court cases about Rule 9 and what constitutes a narrow channel. The simple rule is that any channel bounded by navigation marks (buoys or beacons) is automatically a narrow channel. But it doesn't always apply. One case covered the channel into Wooton Creek, near Ryde. One of the ferries claimed that being bounded by marks (beacons, in this case) the channel must be a narrow channel. The other side pointed out that ferries passing each other frequently went outside the beacons, so that the beacons could not be considered as bounding the channel. The ferry lost.
Reference: "Marsden on Collisions", 2003 edition (from memory).
bobgoode
Active member
Surely a narrow channel is proportionate to the turning circle of the vessel using it.
i.e. can you turn in the channel?
yes...not a narrow channel
no... a narrow channel
Please discuss
i.e. can you turn in the channel?
yes...not a narrow channel
no... a narrow channel
Please discuss
Bilgediver
Well-known member
I think this would make most channels narrow channels for big ships as the turning circle of a cargo ship can be 1 mile or more depending and for a big supertanker a lot more however the same cargo ship would be able to head an alternative course in narrower channels than this if faced with traffic on a collision course.
Mind you some passenger ships and large ferries have very high powered thrusters and so can turn in a few ship lengths!!!! Or go sideways /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
depending and for a big supertanker a lot more however the same cargo ship would be able to head an alternative course in narrower channels than this if faced with traffic on a collision course.Mind you some passenger ships and large ferries have very high powered thrusters and so can turn in a few ship lengths!!!! Or go sideways /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Birdseye
Well-known member
You dont need a rule of thumb for the width of the channel - even if at 100 yards you could estimate both the loa of a boat and the channel width. A boat that is restricted by chanel width in its ability to manoeuvre is expected to hoist the appropriate shapes / show the correct lights. if draft is the problem, rather than simply being unweildy, then there are colreg rules there too.
No such signals = no such problem = not operating in a restricted chanel. So dinghies are never in a restricted channel for a start.
No such signals = no such problem = not operating in a restricted chanel. So dinghies are never in a restricted channel for a start.
gandy
Active member
I don't think that's the case - correct me please ..
Rule 9 wording makes no requirement for lights or shapes. Equally, the CBD rules don't contain any requirement for the vessel to be within a narrow channel.
Rule 9 wording makes no requirement for lights or shapes. Equally, the CBD rules don't contain any requirement for the vessel to be within a narrow channel.
DAKA
Well-known member
Re: Right or wrong
Most of this thread has been about channels the posters are familiar with.
I post this regarding my first visit to chichester harbour when I was unsure about where the deep water was.
When you are in a buoyed chan you can see how much area there is to give way in.
Emsworth (that many locals knows is 200m wide but is not buoyed as such.)
Instead there are channel markers at each bend not in pairs.
I illustrate how I entered Chichester the first time and how you can expect other mobos unfamiliar with the depth to navigate, as they would in the Thames estuary and Humber Estuary etc where buoys are not in pairs.
As you can see there is no leeway and any vessel would be passed Port to port with a 3m gap between, at low water springs I am not the only one who expects to navigate in this way.
Most of this thread has been about channels the posters are familiar with.
I post this regarding my first visit to chichester harbour when I was unsure about where the deep water was.
When you are in a buoyed chan you can see how much area there is to give way in.
Emsworth (that many locals knows is 200m wide but is not buoyed as such.)
Instead there are channel markers at each bend not in pairs.
I illustrate how I entered Chichester the first time and how you can expect other mobos unfamiliar with the depth to navigate, as they would in the Thames estuary and Humber Estuary etc where buoys are not in pairs.
As you can see there is no leeway and any vessel would be passed Port to port with a 3m gap between, at low water springs I am not the only one who expects to navigate in this way.
fireball
New member
I was not aware of any dayshape or lights to be shown if YOU are navigating in a narrow channel. Can you explain what they are and where you've got the info from? Ta! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
fireball
New member
If your boat is capable of 9 knots under engine - then you can only use 8 of those knots ... however, if it can do 9 knots under sail (no engine!) then you can sail at 9 knots....
It may seem strange that there is this restriction, but logically thinking - under sail you cannot easily restrict yourself to a speed limit - gusts can easily take you over the "limit", Ok, perhaps you should reduce sail area so that you don't exceed the limit in the gusts ...
Dinghy racing would become exceedingly boring with speed restrictions ... can you imagine F1 where they are only allowed to travel at 100mph max? Anyway, dinghies do not generally have methods of recording speed (ok a few will now carry GPSs ...)
There seems to be some impression that Chi Harbour is full of Dinghies flying about at 20+ knots ... this is NOT the case ... they hunt around in small packs and normally stick sub 8 knots ... just occasionally sticking up an extra sail when they spot a Mobo that needs terrorising..... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It may seem strange that there is this restriction, but logically thinking - under sail you cannot easily restrict yourself to a speed limit - gusts can easily take you over the "limit", Ok, perhaps you should reduce sail area so that you don't exceed the limit in the gusts ...
Dinghy racing would become exceedingly boring with speed restrictions ... can you imagine F1 where they are only allowed to travel at 100mph max? Anyway, dinghies do not generally have methods of recording speed (ok a few will now carry GPSs ...)
There seems to be some impression that Chi Harbour is full of Dinghies flying about at 20+ knots ... this is NOT the case ... they hunt around in small packs and normally stick sub 8 knots ... just occasionally sticking up an extra sail when they spot a Mobo that needs terrorising..... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
fireball
New member
Yes - I concur that a Narrow Channel is related to your ability to manoeuvre .. but without knowing all the hull shapes, propulsion methods and therefore theoretical turning circle it will be impossible to determine if the vessel could turn in the channel ...
For leisure boats most can turn unassisted within their own length - with a lot of tooing and frowing ... and most do to get in and out of marinas ... so in that regard they are not really restricted in ability to manoeuvre - which would require a dayshape anyway.
Restricted in ability to manoeuvre is there for open water ....
For leisure boats most can turn unassisted within their own length - with a lot of tooing and frowing ... and most do to get in and out of marinas ... so in that regard they are not really restricted in ability to manoeuvre - which would require a dayshape anyway.
Restricted in ability to manoeuvre is there for open water ....
Observer
Active member
As there is no specific definition of "narrow channel" in COLREGS, it must have been intended that the question would be determined subjectively, on the fact of any particular case. The elegant solution to the question, therefore, which is (arguably) implied by the absence of specific definition is that:
In any case where it falls be to be determined whether a "narrow channel" does or does not exist, the person who asserts that the body of water in question is "a narrow channel" or (as the case may be) "is not a narrow channel" shall be obliged to prove that such is or (as the case may be) is not the case.
Thus, the skipper of a sailing boat proceeding without power should consider whether he can 'prove' that the channel IS NOT a "narrow channel", and regulate his actions (including the expectation that power driven vessels shall be obliged to give way to him) accordingly. At the same time, the skipper of a power vessel should consider whether he can 'prove' that the channel IS a "narrow channel" and regulate his actions (including the expectation that he should not give way to sailing vessels) accordingly.
In any case where it falls be to be determined whether a "narrow channel" does or does not exist, the person who asserts that the body of water in question is "a narrow channel" or (as the case may be) "is not a narrow channel" shall be obliged to prove that such is or (as the case may be) is not the case.
Thus, the skipper of a sailing boat proceeding without power should consider whether he can 'prove' that the channel IS NOT a "narrow channel", and regulate his actions (including the expectation that power driven vessels shall be obliged to give way to him) accordingly. At the same time, the skipper of a power vessel should consider whether he can 'prove' that the channel IS a "narrow channel" and regulate his actions (including the expectation that he should not give way to sailing vessels) accordingly.