Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

Simondjuk said:
Your apparently deliberate misunderstanding of the level of competence indicated by the terms day skipper and competent crew has been addressed on numerous occasions.
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Clearly the RYA are selling a ticket in skippering to people who can't do the basic things required of a skipper and selling a ticket in 'competent' crewing to people who should not be regarded as competent to crew.

When that fairly obvious fact is pointed out you're saying "ahh well you've misunderstood what they ought to be able to do."

I think it's more likely that the RYA has misunderstood what is required of a skipper and what is meant by competent.
 
Troubadour said:
I rather get the impression that you're the only poster on here
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Ahhh! The Argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Just because I'm the only one who think someone with a skipper's ticket/certificate ought to be able to make simple weather calls doesn't mean the holder of a skipper's ticket/certificate doesn't need to be able to make simple weather calls.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Clearly the RYA are selling a ticket in skippering to people who can't do the basic things required of a skipper and selling a ticket in 'competent' crewing to people who should not be regarded as competent to crew.

When that fairly obvious fact is pointed out you're saying "ahh well you've misunderstood what they ought to be able to do."

I think it's more likely that the RYA has misunderstood what is required of a skipper and what is meant by competent.
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And around we go again. You are Bill Murray and I claim my £5! :p

Read and digest Troubadour's post. He explains it most eloquently.
 
The MCA seems to have instituted proceedings against 'Hot Liquid' so it appears likely that the RYA, not wishing to be left out, are merely jumping on the bandwagon by having 'HL' remove the TickMark logo from their website.

I've read all the previous comments here and find sense in many of them.

Considering the role of the business's owner vis a vis the role of the professional skipper, I'm minded of the extremely challenging post of 'Authorising Officer' on an RAF squadron, where half the aircrew are inexperienced 'first-tourists' who still need to be authorised to fly training and ops missions which challenge them, so that they gain priceless experience and judgement, but where swift-changing weather conditions aloft could put the ever-so-slightly 'gung-ho' types into situations where superior judgement proves insufficient and a display of superior flying skills is called on to get 'em out of the dwang.

Sooner or later, someone gets it a bit wrong and comes back in worsening weather 'below limits', without the contingency fuel to divert safely somewhere else. Sometimes they scrape in. Sometimes they don't. Captain's responsibility? Authorising Officer's responsibility? Both....?

There is a wizened - and wise - cadre that holds you can delegate authority ( to make decisions, to take action ), but you cannot delegate responsibility. From that perspective, it's neither the pro yacht skipper nor the business owner that's accountable - it's both of them. They each have a Duty of Care to their clients/crew members.

I wonder how the professional shipmasters/superintendents who lurk on here view this....

:cool:
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Ahhh! The Argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Just because I'm the only one who think someone with a skipper's ticket/certificate ought to be able to make simple weather calls doesn't mean the holder of a skipper's ticket/certificate doesn't need to be able to make simple weather calls.
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I don't think that addresses or conflicts with anything I said!
 
Interesting thread. However, anyone with half a brain could figure out that if you pay an airline, train company, cruise line or sailing company any money, they take the rap for anything the driver does.

I know that without having had a telly for 15 years coz I can read.
 
capnsensible said:
Interesting thread. However, anyone with half a brain could figure out that if you pay an airline, train company, cruise line or sailing company any money, they take the rap for anything the driver does.

I know that without having had a telly for 15 years coz I can read.
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Depends what you mean by 'take the rap'.

I don't think every airline is prevented from carrying passengers if a pilot or staff member causes minor damage to a plane. Costa haven't been prevented from running their core business when one of their captains wrote off a ship.

So I don't think you can expect Hot Liquid to lose their rya recognition for decisions delegated to a qualified skipper.

Hot Liquid will be claiming on their insurance for any damage so in that sense they will be taking the rap.

However the MCA think HL have a case to answer so we'll see what that case is in the fullness of time. The RYA hint at "procedures".
 
Keen_Ed said:
You might think apparently deliberate. I couldn't possibly comment.
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Yet you coldn't you find one complete sentence or paragraph I've written in this thread that you think is incorrect, quote it, and state why it's wrong.

You had to go for an Ad Hom attack.

As you know, Ad Hom attacks are only required by the side which isn't supported by reason.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Yet you coldn't you find one complete sentence or paragraph I've written in this thread that you think is incorrect, quote it, and state why it's wrong.
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I did:DSmashed up and wrecked spring to mind.:rolleyes:How soon you forget:o

I am sure there are more but I just can't be bothered to read the rest of your posts.:p
 
rotrax said:
If you get our esteemed government involved there will be a great risk of licencing becoming a requirement to sail in UK waters. Despite what many posters think about the RYA, as new sailors First Mate and I have gone through the RYA training route to the level we feel is suitable for us. We could go further but we are finding that sea miles are the best training, as well as gleaning practical sailing hints and tips from more experienced sailors. I feel that at my age a YM qualification is a bit OTT. I have Coastal Skipper practical and First Mate has Day Skipper. We have a very seaworthy long keel cutter. We would not have gone out into the Channel with the forecast that HL's Skipper decided was OK. We only hear about the bad sea schools.99.9% get on with the RYA sylibus and turn out sailors and powerboaters to a standard envied in most of the world for its relative low cost and quality of training. The RYA is aimed mostly at leisure boaters and the course content is fine for that. YM and commercial endorsment is a different level and one that I have no direct experience of, so I will I make no comment.
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I am not crticising the sea schools per se. My view is that the syllabuses are insufficient with the result that qualified sailors and sailorettes who rely on the RYA for learning and guidance end up with very grave gaps in their knowledge bases.

The consequence of not having the knowledge is the inability to recognise the risks presented by oncoming heavy weather and the savvy not to put out to sea in such conditions in advance of the event.

I will add; the gaps do not just relate to meteorology and weather forecasting but they impinge on nearly all the topics of seafaring as a consequence of progressive "pruning" of syllabuses through the years.
 
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Yacht Breeze said:
I assume the 'Hot Liquid' refers to Horlicks.
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No, not Horlicks, let's be serious here....

When I studied for my ticket at the School of Navigation in Tower Hill in London under the tutelage of two Extra Masters ans a retired Commander RN I thought some of the detail candidates were expected to master seemed arcane. This was in 1974.

I will give you one example:

We were expected to learn by rote, Points, Quadrantal Notation and Circular (360 degree) Notation and to be able to convert from one to the other MENTALLY and INSTANTLY. What is more, we were expected to master the RECIPROCALS mentally without having to calculate on a chart or with a pencil and notebook.

You may think this is learning to box the compass a step too far. Not so.

A few months ago a group from my club participated in a race off the coast of Sardinia. They put the boat (a Swan) on an uncharted rock and did huge damage to the vessel.

In cross questioning the navigator over lunch it turned out that the colour of the water was changing rapidly, yet no one on board understood the significance of this and they all ploughed on and crunch !

Had he been properly taught in detail as I was, he would have learnt that colour change off the coast signifies the proximity of shallows ahead and furthermore, since the coastline was rocky, the risk of a rocky bottom as well.

Further prodded as to why they did not immediately turn around and go to deeper water and safety, the reply was that it was a race, and in any event it would have taken time to work out a reciprocal course, just imagine !

I then shocked him by challenging him to quote any heading to which I was able INSTANTANEOUSLY and WITHOUT HESITATION give the reciprocal, not just once but at least a dozen times together with the equivalent in points and quadrantal notation for good measure.

Had he known these two facts and taken the proper action the wrecking would have been avoisded, never mind the race.

Now some of you are going to answer back, for sure.

This is just an examople of what happens in an environment of throwaway traininhg described as proper learning as a consequence of syllabuses being shrunk, I respectfully submit.
 
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toad_oftoadhall said:
Depends what you mean by 'take the rap'.

I don't think every airline is prevented from carrying passengers if a pilot or staff member causes minor damage to a plane. Costa haven't been prevented from running their core business when one of their captains wrote off a ship.

So I don't think you can expect Hot Liquid to lose their rya recognition for decisions delegated to a qualified skipper.

Hot Liquid will be claiming on their insurance for any damage so in that sense they will be taking the rap.

However the MCA think HL have a case to answer so we'll see what that case is in the fullness of time. The RYA hint at "procedures".
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Bootmenders. If an airline or bus company or whatever is negligent, then its authorising body can shut it down. The RYA are the regulatory peeps for sailing schools. The school has cocked up 3 times in public, therefore the RYA training committee have tugged their licence.

It is very simple and all sailing schools know the rules. And are inspected annually to confirm beyond doubt.

At great expense. :)

If you can be at all bothered, get a copy of RGN1 Guidance notes for training centres and then you will have a clue what you are talking about.
 
Pete R said:
I did:DSmashed up and wrecked spring to mind.:rolleyes:How soon you forget:o

I am sure there are more but I just can't be bothered to read the rest of your posts.:p
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I must admit I tend to ignore almost anything Toady contributes these days, so much of it is deliberately a distortion of reality
 
capnsensible said:
Bootmenders. If an airline or bus company or whatever is negligent, then its authorising body can shut it down. The RYA are the regulatory peeps for sailing schools. The school has cocked up 3 times in public, therefore the RYA training committee have tugged their licence.

It is very simple and all sailing schools know the rules. And are inspected annually to confirm beyond doubt.

At great expense. :)

If you can be at all bothered, get a copy of RGN1 Guidance notes for training centres and then you will have a clue what you are talking about.
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What if anything is happening to HL in Gib?
 
Rebrand (?) as Hot Liquid Gibraltar. Have a look at the link from the original poster, they still are recognised. Didnt see them about this week though.
 
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