Tidewaiter2
New member
FWIW on this Fred n Forum, here is my rant
....having avidly followed all the H/L threads, and unfortunately, having had to extract isolated facts from wads of paper or e-mails and put a successful summary together or get a P45, here is my distillation of the H/L position;
As posted by the actual crew onboard, it was posted to them as a mile builder op, with two potential overnighters in Brighton & Ramsgate.Per dates, plenty time in hand to reach LIBS too.
vide their post on another thread + a prev poster's spam copy earlier here. So not a sh%* or bust job.
A Force 10+ was well forecasted, but was also said to be likely to pass over quickly. Which it did. With the 'programmed' two night stops, there was clearly no time pressure, unless the School was lying in it's offer to the punters.
Now I'm no highly ticketed 0 to Hero, just a sailing Coastal/ICC plodder since I was 11, with gap years, but FAR better sailors than me have endorsed " a F6 is a yachtsman's Gale" as a sensible view. (see Note1).
So we have a young Commercial YM all bells & whistles Skipper planning to take a very mixed 'cruising' bag of crew including two 50/60 age range crew out into a F10+, and posting his intention on the Web. In a First 40.7. Into the Downs and Dover Strait with the F10 up your transom.
Then, instead of doing a stopover, even if not where planned(see above), or aborting early into Pompey, Chi, Shoreham, Brighton before the entrance seas build, or Newhaven- **** marina but well sheltered, and pretty much all tide, when the Storm comes in, exactly as forecast, he carries on.
Other chances of rest/refuge along the way(they exist for a right seaman!)are also ignored.
There is a very good time line on another thread that shows just how long the injured helm had been on duty, due to incapacity of other crew- most of the 24hours before injury.(Note2)
Come the Morn after the Storm;
Sail cut away- ie kit beginning to fail?, helm injured- his fatigue contributary- he's not a wimp- CNN hotspot employee?
YM is now the only fully? fit bod on board, and wheel is jammed.
Good job RNLI on scene by then.Starting to go very sour.
My Conclusion;
I think this is a Triumph of one poorly supervised, macho, qualified but unseamanlike young man's hubris over commonsense, basic Seamanship, and Customer Service- I wonder how many of that crew would have gone out again with H/L if they had made it through OK or will now?
The RYA are right to pull H/L's recognition in the circs-the firm should have officially delayed the trip until the storm went over, or told him very firmly-take the punters for a quick high winds 'taster' dash to the Gosport /Cowes Fleshpots for the night and no further til that lot goes thru. Then get going again.
As a retired/lapsed RYA Instructor and racing Skipper, used for introducing complete novices to offshore racing, I think his ticket should be reviewed too.
Getting caught out in **** is one thing, delibrately going for it is plain daft(unless its a Joint Services Yacht with a Rupert driver
, of course!)
A clear failure in 'duty of care' for their Customers by Skipper and Firm.
What I've Learnt;
You are only as good as the last time you went out, next time is just like the first time you went out, the learning curve is still that steep!
(Note 1) Personal Skippering experience of F6-F8 cruising offshore/coastal in a Wayfarer when younger, macho and fitter, and F6/8+ cruising and racing 20'-37' yachts in the Channel, Solent, France, Clyde and Approaches when older/decrepit has taught me this;
They were right about F6 being a small boat gale, and the crew will wilt long before the boat, as a general rule, from my own observations.
The noise, the boat motion, the sheer effort needed to move round the boat.
Without seeing his Logbook or putting him down, I would like how much real outside the Solent/Cherbourg/CI triangle really heavy weather time, he'd had before that night.
(Note2) Well, I'd not go out/stay out in F6 rising to F10 in our solid, heavy boat, even with some ex-Para mates who are still pretty tough, and a couple of the young really fit racing crew I know to do the grunt work.
(Note 3)I've helmed on a short(24/36hr), winter, very rough(but only a F6) 3 up pre G|PS overnight trip from Dunkirk to Maldon(via Walton on The Naze!) with a Skipper glued to the nav table, and a fellow crew who would also not come on deck and give me a break on the tiller.
I was shredded and never sailed with them again! Made me determined to get my own tickets too- Skipper couldn't navigate his way out of a paper bag with a flamethrower, but wouldn't listen to local knowledge/experience!
....having avidly followed all the H/L threads, and unfortunately, having had to extract isolated facts from wads of paper or e-mails and put a successful summary together or get a P45, here is my distillation of the H/L position;
As posted by the actual crew onboard, it was posted to them as a mile builder op, with two potential overnighters in Brighton & Ramsgate.Per dates, plenty time in hand to reach LIBS too.
vide their post on another thread + a prev poster's spam copy earlier here. So not a sh%* or bust job.
A Force 10+ was well forecasted, but was also said to be likely to pass over quickly. Which it did. With the 'programmed' two night stops, there was clearly no time pressure, unless the School was lying in it's offer to the punters.
Now I'm no highly ticketed 0 to Hero, just a sailing Coastal/ICC plodder since I was 11, with gap years, but FAR better sailors than me have endorsed " a F6 is a yachtsman's Gale" as a sensible view. (see Note1).
So we have a young Commercial YM all bells & whistles Skipper planning to take a very mixed 'cruising' bag of crew including two 50/60 age range crew out into a F10+, and posting his intention on the Web. In a First 40.7. Into the Downs and Dover Strait with the F10 up your transom.
Then, instead of doing a stopover, even if not where planned(see above), or aborting early into Pompey, Chi, Shoreham, Brighton before the entrance seas build, or Newhaven- **** marina but well sheltered, and pretty much all tide, when the Storm comes in, exactly as forecast, he carries on.
Other chances of rest/refuge along the way(they exist for a right seaman!)are also ignored.
There is a very good time line on another thread that shows just how long the injured helm had been on duty, due to incapacity of other crew- most of the 24hours before injury.(Note2)
Come the Morn after the Storm;
Sail cut away- ie kit beginning to fail?, helm injured- his fatigue contributary- he's not a wimp- CNN hotspot employee?
YM is now the only fully? fit bod on board, and wheel is jammed.
Good job RNLI on scene by then.Starting to go very sour.
My Conclusion;
I think this is a Triumph of one poorly supervised, macho, qualified but unseamanlike young man's hubris over commonsense, basic Seamanship, and Customer Service- I wonder how many of that crew would have gone out again with H/L if they had made it through OK or will now?
The RYA are right to pull H/L's recognition in the circs-the firm should have officially delayed the trip until the storm went over, or told him very firmly-take the punters for a quick high winds 'taster' dash to the Gosport /Cowes Fleshpots for the night and no further til that lot goes thru. Then get going again.
As a retired/lapsed RYA Instructor and racing Skipper, used for introducing complete novices to offshore racing, I think his ticket should be reviewed too.
Getting caught out in **** is one thing, delibrately going for it is plain daft(unless its a Joint Services Yacht with a Rupert driver
, of course!)A clear failure in 'duty of care' for their Customers by Skipper and Firm.
What I've Learnt;
You are only as good as the last time you went out, next time is just like the first time you went out, the learning curve is still that steep!
(Note 1) Personal Skippering experience of F6-F8 cruising offshore/coastal in a Wayfarer when younger, macho and fitter, and F6/8+ cruising and racing 20'-37' yachts in the Channel, Solent, France, Clyde and Approaches when older/decrepit has taught me this;
They were right about F6 being a small boat gale, and the crew will wilt long before the boat, as a general rule, from my own observations.
The noise, the boat motion, the sheer effort needed to move round the boat.
Without seeing his Logbook or putting him down, I would like how much real outside the Solent/Cherbourg/CI triangle really heavy weather time, he'd had before that night.
(Note2) Well, I'd not go out/stay out in F6 rising to F10 in our solid, heavy boat, even with some ex-Para mates who are still pretty tough, and a couple of the young really fit racing crew I know to do the grunt work.
(Note 3)I've helmed on a short(24/36hr), winter, very rough(but only a F6) 3 up pre G|PS overnight trip from Dunkirk to Maldon(via Walton on The Naze!) with a Skipper glued to the nav table, and a fellow crew who would also not come on deck and give me a break on the tiller.
I was shredded and never sailed with them again! Made me determined to get my own tickets too- Skipper couldn't navigate his way out of a paper bag with a flamethrower, but wouldn't listen to local knowledge/experience!
