Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[emsworthy]

Sorry PeteR you are right and I am wrong.

Smashed and wrecked were completely inappropriate terms to describe the vessel, which after all, eventually made it's way to safety under it's own steam.

I got a bit carried away.

Thanks for correcting me.

Well I suppose if we're in the relams of being absolutely correct then it didn't exactly complete its truncated passage under it own steam. I recall reading about two lifeboats being employed to tow it, at least part of the way.

 

[FishyInverness]

Cheers Simon

 

[Alfie168]

You can have all the qualifications in the world, none of them bless you with good judgement per se. It seems a perfectly qualified skipper made a very bad call, and that call was based quite possibly not on the safety of his ship & crew criteria, but on a commercial pressure to get to Excel PDQ.

If thats the case, then it looks bad. I only have Powerboat level 2 and my VHF, but a smidgeon of common sense tells me that If I am sailing with a crew I don't know very well then the last thing I should be doing is putting them into an extreme scenario, or even the prospect of one. When all is said and done most of us are amateurs in the nicest possible sense.

The Costa Concordia is another example of highly qualified people making a dreadfully bad call.

Tim

 

[Elemental]

If there was any need to make such a call then there was either something wrong with the principal's decision to employ such an instructor or the principal knew that he had employed a loose cannon.

If I were the principal I would trust my skipper to make the correct decision. When I have been instructing I have not had the principal phoning me up advising me whether to put to sea or not, neither would I expect this to happen.

The school has lost its approval because of a string of incidents. The blame for this can only be laid at the principal's door, but not because he failed to operate his boats by remote control.

+1

im with you webby.but could you explain why an owner of a sailing school cant stay up 24/7 keeping an eye on one or several boats and the weather forcast and ring up skippers who he has paid to do a job and tell them if thay can sail or not

The school has lost its approval - and that is sad for them. However, it's not the case that the owner should have operated his yacht by remote control - and not trusting skippers. Rather, the school should have have a set of operating procedures, anticipating potential hazardous scenarios, that made the Principal's wishes clear in those circumstances. In that case, you could have a procedure, say, that precludes the skipper from setting sail if there's an F11 anywhere in the forecast. If such a procedure were in place it would be hard(er) for the principal to held to account if the skipper ignored it and set sail anyway. For all I know, they may well have had such a procedure, but perhaps the skipper wasn't made aware of it.
Whatever, my suspicion is that the RYA have removed recognition due to some systemic failure within the company rather than as a reaction to this single event.

 

[rotrax]

+1



The school has lost its approval - and that is sad for them. However, it's not the case that the owner should have operated his yacht by remote control - and not trusting skippers. Rather, the school should have have a set of operating procedures, anticipating potential hazardous scenarios, that made the Principal's wishes clear in those circumstances. In that case, you could have a procedure, say, that precludes the skipper from setting sail if there's an F11 anywhere in the forecast. If such a procedure were in place it would be hard(er) for the principal to held to account if the skipper ignored it and set sail anyway. For all I know, they may well have had such a procedure, but perhaps the skipper wasn't made aware of it.
Whatever, my suspicion is that the RYA have removed recognition due to some systemic failure within the company rather than as a reaction to this single event.

That is how I read it also. Even though it was not on an RYA training course-I believe the other two instances were also not RYA related-when your organisation has approved a sailing school and you find its management structures defective in regards to safety you must take steps to ensure that RYA trainees, atracted by the reputation of the RYA and its Logo are not put into avoidable hazard. We all know the Skipper made a bad decision-The management should have been on top of it with advice and if required the ultimate sanction of not to go. This did not happen and was the third incident in a fairly short space of time. C'EST LA VIE!

 

[MissFitz]

Whatever, my suspicion is that the RYA have removed recognition due to some systemic failure within the company rather than as a reaction to this single event.

I wouldn't find this hard to believe. I did my DS & quite a few weekends with Hot Liquid back in the day, & while I had a lot of fun at the time with the benefit of more experience & training their safety standards left a lot to be desired. And the skippers were a very very mixed bunch, from the very good to the astonishingly laid-back to the completely manic - & there didn't seem to be a lot of oversight.

Some of the blame should still rest with the skipper though - if you're going to take a crew out in heavy weather you should ask them if they've been out in those conditions before. If they haven't, you should ask yourself if you could get the boat safely there by yourself if they become incapacitated. And if the answer is no, you shouldn't set off. A Yachtmaster Offshore is not a solo sailing qualification.

 

[sailorman]

I wouldn't find this hard to believe. I did my DS & quite a few weekends with Hot Liquid back in the day, & while I had a lot of fun at the time with the benefit of more experience & training their safety standards left a lot to be desired. And the skippers were a very very mixed bunch, from the very good to the astonishingly laid-back to the completely manic - & there didn't seem to be a lot of oversight.

Some of the blame should still rest with the skipper though - if you're going to take a crew out in heavy weather you should ask them if they've been out in those conditions before. If they haven't, you should ask yourself if you could get the boat safely there by yourself if they become incapacitated. And if the answer is no, you shouldn't set off. A Yachtmaster Offshore is not a solo sailing qualification.

Remove Some of the add The

 

[fireball]

Remove Some of the add The

Whilst in this case I do agree that HL and the skipper are most likely equally at fault there are cases of coercion where skippers feel they have little choice but to comply with their employers demands.
This happens in all sorts of businesses - but not often with the same publicity or impact!

 

[Elemental]

Remove Some of the add The

-1

Of course the skipper is at fault (if we accept that there was fault at all in his decisions and actions). However, the company has a responsibilty (moral and possibly legal) to have a set of operating procedures covering hazardous scenarios - guidance for the skipper if you like.
I have no idea whether such procedures were in place but if the company did NOT have such procedures, how is it completely the skipper's fault and not at all the company's?

 

[MissFitz]

One final thought (which may well have been thought already, if so apologies) - if the boat had to be at the boat show & the weather was looking dicey, there was presumably nothing to stop them giving the punters their money back & putting a couple of genuinely competent crew on board for the trip - surely wouldn't be too hard to find in Southampton in the middle of winter?

 

[rotrax]

Whilst in this case I do agree that HL and the skipper are most likely equally at fault there are cases of coercion where skippers feel they have little choice but to comply with their employers demands.
This happens in all sorts of businesses - but not often with the same publicity or impact!

If as you appear to be suggesting, HL's management applied pressure to the Skipper to go, that is a perfect reason to take away RYA endorsment. The facts on that suggestion are not proven. Perhaps MAIB will find out.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I reckon the mods should introduce another board called " the kangaroo court". We could put this thread into it along with the Rocna one and the Costa Concordia - indeed any thread which relates to an accident that someone else had.

Then as perfect sailors who have never cocked up, we can sit in judgement on the sinners.

 

[Flying Penguin]

I reckon the mods should introduce another board called " the kangaroo court". We could put this thread into it along with the Rocna one and the Costa Concordia - indeed any thread which relates to an accident that someone else had.

Then as perfect sailors who have never cocked up, we can sit in judgement on the sinners.

So what sort of discussion should be had about accidents and licenses oh great moral barometer?

 

[sailorman]

I reckon the mods should introduce another board called " the kangaroo court". We could put this thread into it along with the Rocna one and the Costa Concordia - indeed any thread which relates to an accident that someone else had.

Then as perfect sailors who have never cocked up, we can sit in judgement on the sinners.

Whoone would run it then

 

[VO5]

So what sort of discussion should be had about accidents and licenses oh great moral barometer?

It is very simple.

The discussion you ought to be having ought to be about petitioning the Government to set higher standards that are nowadays not the norm under the aegis of the RYA whose syllabus is the bare minimum and in many instances below that if you consider how over time their syllabuses have been made to shrink.

This is not correct.

Yachtsmen and yachtswomen ought not to be given skimpy training, nor should they be given what they want. A great seafaring nation like the United Kingdom ought to give them what they need and not what they want or what descends to be acceptable in a profit driven environment, is what you ought to be discussing and furthermore seeking to act upon.

 

[sailorman]

It is very simple.

The discussion you ought to be having ought to be about petitioning the Government to set higher standards that are nowadays not the norm under the aegis of the RYA whose syllabus is the bare minimum and in many instances below that if you consider how over time their syllabuses have been made to shrink.

This is not correct.

Yachtsmen and yachtswomen ought not to be given skimpy training, nor should they be given what they want. A great seafaring nation like the United Kingdom ought to give them what they need and not what they want or what descends to be acceptable in a profit driven environment, is what you ought to be discussing and furthermore seeking to act upon.

Some have had no formal training at all

 

[dt4134]

Yachtsmen and yachtswomen ought not to be given skimpy training, nor should they be given what they want. A great seafaring nation like the United Kingdom ought to give them what they need and not what they want or what descends to be acceptable in a profit driven environment, is what you ought to be discussing and furthermore seeking to act upon.

Would the necessary training include experience of heavy weather sailing in winter? Think they got that.

 

[toad]

Intresting thread,daughters boy friend has paid for a course but they are not answering the phone today,we will see what happens Monday

 

[rotrax]

It is very simple.

The discussion you ought to be having ought to be about petitioning the Government to set higher standards that are nowadays not the norm under the aegis of the RYA whose syllabus is the bare minimum and in many instances below that if you consider how over time their syllabuses have been made to shrink.

This is not correct.

Yachtsmen and yachtswomen ought not to be given skimpy training, nor should they be given what they want. A great seafaring nation like the United Kingdom ought to give them what they need and not what they want or what descends to be acceptable in a profit driven environment, is what you ought to be discussing and furthermore seeking to act upon.

If you get our esteemed government involved there will be a great risk of licencing becoming a requirement to sail in UK waters. Despite what many posters think about the RYA, as new sailors First Mate and I have gone through the RYA training route to the level we feel is suitable for us. We could go further but we are finding that sea miles are the best training, as well as gleaning practical sailing hints and tips from more experienced sailors. I feel that at my age a YM qualification is a bit OTT. I have Coastal Skipper practical and First Mate has Day Skipper. We have a very seaworthy long keel cutter. We would not have gone out into the Channel with the forecast that HL's Skipper decided was OK. We only hear about the bad sea schools.99.9% get on with the RYA sylibus and turn out sailors and powerboaters to a standard envied in most of the world for its relative low cost and quality of training. The RYA is aimed mostly at leisure boaters and the course content is fine for that. YM and commercial endorsment is a different level and one that I have no direct experience of, so I will I make no comment.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

New information, Blackadder?

Remove Some of the add The

If there is to be blame I'd be inclined to agree, except:

www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/530725/sailing-school-faces-court-hearing

So the MCA seem to think the Skipper and the School have a case to answer.

Looks like we will be getting some facts which is a good thing.