Oceanis
New member
OK, given the level of experience and qualifications of the crew, would you have put to sea in those circumstances?
Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition
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OK, given the level of experience and qualifications of the crew, would you have put to sea in those circumstances?
toad_oftoadhall
New member
Looks to me like the RYA knew one of their schools was about to be the subject of a court case as a result of *this last incident* and dropped them like a stone.
Be a bit of a coincidence that they dropped the school the day before the MCA announcement if that wasn't the case.
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toad_oftoadhall
New member
What the hell has that got to do with:
a) Whether or not the Skipper delegated "responsiblity for the go/no go decision to a group of CCs and DSs".
b) Whether or not the people on the boat called the lifeboats.
???????????
Oceanis
New member
Agreed and as I stated in #130 "I don't like to see someone's business in a mess but we have to consider the previous accidents with HF boats"
toad_oftoadhall
New member
...but it wasn't clear to him they were novices because in the eyes of the RYA 2 were skippers and 3 were competent.
Perhaps both CC and DS should be renamed "Novice Ticket" so there are no future misunderstandings about the value of these rather expensive tickets.
Also he didn't 'take them out'. They went of their own free will. He had no power to make them go.
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Oceanis
New member
Because ultimately we are surely looking at whether that boat should have been out there or not given the circumstances. I'm going to watch some rugby on the TV and I'm going sailing this weekend so will pick up again on Sunday night if the thread is still glowing red.
Simondjuk
Active member
Wasn't Groundhog Day yesterday and is there an ignore button?
toad_oftoadhall
New member
I notice you haven't attempted to address what I actually said.
So if you can't think of any reason why I'm wrong perhaps you have to consider the possibility that I'm right?
Oceanis
New member
Final word before I go and watch the rugby.......I agree, novice ticket is excatly what it is. It's the equivalent of getting your first swimming certificate "swimming one length of the pool!"
toad_oftoadhall
New member
So we can agree terms like 'skipper' or 'competent' are profoundly misleading?
rotrax
Well-known member
You really dont get it do you.Just like an MOT test on your car a leisure RYA certificate tells anyone who is interested that you have aquired a measure of training TO A MINIMUM LEVEL, just as the MOT tells you your car is safe technically TO A MINIMUM LEVEL. I dont hear the RYA or approved training centres trying to make more of these MIMIMAL leisure certificates. Where do you get the idea that they are expensive. I, and I am sure most reasonable folk would consider three or four hundred pounds full board on a boat for five or six nights while engaged in finding out how to make a sailing boat work and to learn a few basic skills quite reasonable. I have no problem with the cost of training, and certainly no problem with the training that I have recieved. Like I said in a previous post, destructive critisism is easy. Tell us how you would improve training for boaters at somewhere near the same level of cost and quality or stop bitching about what many consider to be a good and reliable system of training.
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Simondjuk
Active member
I know I didn't. I now see that it would be pointless to do so for the millionth time only to have you make us do it yet again another day.
I can think of many reasons. So, no, I do not.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
I would seriously suggest that part of the minimum level required to skipper a yacht is to be able to look at a forecast with an 11 in it and from an opinion on whether or not it's a good day to go out.
What amazes me is that is such a controversial view on YBW. The idea that a skipper might be able to look at a forecast wouldn't be very controversial outside of YBW.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
You haven't.
Simondjuk
Active member
That's because I said I wouldn't.
Plevier
Active member
I rather get the impression that you're the only poster on here who does insist on misunderstanding these "tickets", which are not without value but must be considered in context. Would you claim that passing your driving test makes you competent to take a rally car round an off road stage on ice without more training and experience? Or a novice skier do a black run? Or a pilot with a basic PPL fly a Spitfire in bad weather? In theory he's qualified to (after compulsory extra training for tailwheel, variable pitch prop and retracting undercarriage!) in reality he would very likely be dead.
As for saying they went of their own free will, (a) they were under psychological pressure, they trusted his position as professional instructor for whose services they were paying, it wasn't just like a sail with another club member, it would have been like arguing with the boss and (b) they weren't competent to judge at their level of experience. They were entitled to rely on his judgement. You're right of course he had no power to force them, but it would have taken guts to be the first to say no. He should have been briefing them "this is going to be demanding, do you understand what you may be facing?" His tweets suggest (speculation I know) that his attitude would have been rather different from that. (EDIT - of course he should have discussed and consulted with the crew before takingthe decision.)
A few years ago I was due to crew on a cross channel race and the skipper withdrew the night before because of the current weather (F6/7, rising) and worsening forecast. In my inexperience (recent DS) I tried to persuade him to go and I tried to find another berth. A few boats did go, met the F9/10 that was forecast, suffered lots of damage and one had MoBs (recovered). Now with more experience, I'm sure he was right, but if he had gone, I would have gone with him. If it happened again now, I don't think I'd go even if he did!
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rotrax
Well-known member
Well said. 'Ol toady's struggling a bit here isnt he!
toad_oftoadhall
New member
No you haven't in ur previos posts. I've read them. You haven't addressed anything I've said.
Simondjuk
Active member
Thank you, Troubadour. You have saved my sanity.
I fear your efforts may prove to be wasted however.
I fear your efforts may prove to be wasted however.
Simondjuk
Active member
Your apparently deliberate misunderstanding of the level of competence indicated by the terms day skipper and competent crew has been addressed on numerous occasions. I didn't allude to being the one to do so on all occasions, simply that it had been done ad nauseam.