Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[Kurrawong_Kid]

To be fair I don't think they considered taking the train home till they were off Newhaven and by that stage there weren't any conveniently located stations.

Newhaven has a railway station and a harbour. Could have gone in there.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Day Skipper isn't really a 'qualification', and it certainly isn't a 'ticket'. it is a certificate saying you have attended and completed a course. If it had to be 'revalidated' then the RYA would undoubtedly be accused of milking the system.

DS does not automatically qualify or authorise you to do anything.

- W

Yes I know. The point was made that if day skipper doesn't make you a known quantity, why do it? My point was that showing you got through the course at some point without getting thrown off (or got your ym offshore) is no good as a guarentee without currency limits, but that there is no point in this if there is going to be no licence required. Life is too short to waste on the semantics of qualification/course completion certificate, especially where it isn't actually particularly relevant.

 

[webcraft]

This was a commercial vessel so AFAIK there *was* a requirement for a licence for the skipper, and quite right too.

The skipper had a commercially endorsed YM Offshore, as required by law for this trip.

- W

 

[Flying Penguin]

This was a commercial vessel so AFAIK there *was* a requirement for a licence for the skipper, and quite right too.

Yes there was, but we aren't talking about the skipper. Do try to keep up.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Part of HLs statement says of the crew "all were existing Hot Liquid sea school students and all had an RYA qualification". We understand that the certificates held were either at competent crew or day skipper level.

Plus one Commercial Yachtmaster.

Were there a series of incidents calling into question the competence of holders of those certificates, we should expect the RYA to take action to resolve that situation.

I bet they don't though. They'll just try to make Hot Liquid look as bad as they can in the hope that nobody realizes that almost all the tickets they sell are a worthless rip off.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Yes there was, but we aren't talking about the skipper.

???

 

[Clyde_Wanderer]

I would have thought that a rya approved skipper would have the responsibility of making the decision whether to sail or not, especially when he knew the limits of his crew?
or was he preasurised into carrying on with the passage?
If he made the finnal decision to carry on, should he not lose his rya qualification too?
C_W

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I would suggest;
If you charter out a boat you also have a responsibility to stop the clients sailing in extreme weather.

If you hired the skipper to take the crew you have even more responsibility to stop them sailing.

There should be in place a management system in place for this. Once upon a time it was called experience and common sense but these it seems have little place in a modern world..

Quite correct. In a different context there is a West Country firm that forbids charterers from overnighting in Mevagissy because of danger of damage to yachts. No reason why HL couldn't give guidance re forecast wind strengths and when and when not to set sail.

 

[dt4134]

Newhaven has a railway station and a harbour. Could have gone in there.

Skipper could've.

But Toad was talking about the crew stepping off and catching a train home.

 

[Flying Penguin]

???

Re read your post at #31.

The skipper was hand picked and had all relevant ym qualifications for the trip. The other people had RYA day skip, which you feel should make them a known quantity, I disagree as there is no account taken of currency. I think we agree that there should be account taken of currency, but perhaps it's the best solution that doesn't end up in everybody having licences?

And FYI, I do have day skip, it doesn't certify anything other than I have a pulse, but it helps prove to charter companies that I'm not a complete liability, only a partial
liability. That makes it worth the money I spent doing it.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

there is a West Country firm that forbids charterers from overnighting in Mevagissy because of danger of damage to yachts.

At the risk of going off topic; what's wrong with Mevagissy? There's not a lot of space and it's not much fun in an Easterly but banning charterers from using it seems a bit OTT.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Re read your post at #31.

How the hell does that exclude the Master?

 

[Flying Penguin]

How the hell does that exclude the Master?

The master was an employee of the company (or regular freelancer, either way he made regular tweet to hot liquid saying he was instructing for them), he should be a known quantity irrespective of his tickets. The others only had DS. That does not make them a known quantity.

Of course you can squirm some more if you like. I heard he moonlighted for RINA

If someone has sold you a Day Skipper on the basis that you need an RYA ticket to charter you were ripped off.

So the charter company I posted a copy of my DS cert to yesterday were just asking me for fun? They would accept an ICC instead...

For the record I do not have years of sailing without a cert to use as a replacement. I freely admit that I am a relative novice compared to many on here.

 

[alant]

I would have thought that a rya approved skipper would have the responsibility of making the decision whether to sail or not, especially when he knew the limits of his crew?
or was he preasurised into carrying on with the passage?
If he made the finnal decision to carry on, should he not lose his rya qualification too?
C_W

Its the responsibility of any skipper, regardless whether RYA 'approved'.

 

[alant]

The master was an employee of the company (or regular freelancer, either way he made regular tweet to hot liquid saying he was instructing for them), he should be a known quantity irrespective of his tickets. The others only had DS. That does not make them a known quantity.

Of course you can squirm some more if you like. I heard he moonlighted for RINA



So the charter company I posted a copy of my DS cert to yesterday were just asking me for fun? They would accept an ICC instead...

For the record I do not have years of sailing without a cert to use as a replacement. I freely admit that I am a relative novice compared to many on here.

As you probably know, a DS certificate will allow you to get an ICC from the RYA.

 

[Flying Penguin]

As you probably know, a DS certificate will allow you to get an ICC from the RYA.

Thanks . I've already sorted that bit, but it's difficult to get one without DS, and if nothing else, the training I received was bloody good, so I don't feel ripped off in the slightest, whatever some people feel about RYA courses

 

[fireball]

Hot Liquid entrusted one of their charter boats to a delivery crew made up entirely of qualified RYA skippers and crew.

If anything shouldn't Hot Liquid are the victims in this and should be suing the RYA for giving these guys qualifications which Hot Liquid presumably took at face value.

Or do the RYA think the people on board were not sufficiently qualified to make a go-no go decision based on weather and needed Hot Liquid to make the call for them?

Or is the removal of "RYA recognition" nothing to do with that incident?

It was a mile builder "cruise" run by Hot Liquid.
They had an RYA qualified skipper to run the cruise.
The crew all had RYA certifications of varying sorts - iirc the most experienced was a day skipper who was several years rusty. The crew were NOT QUALIFIED ...

 

[Flying Penguin]

It was a mile builder "cruise" run by Hot Liquid.
They had an RYA qualified skipper to run the cruise.
The crew all had RYA certifications of varying sorts - iirc the most experienced was a day skipper who was several years rusty. The crew were NOT QUALIFIED ...

+1

I didn't know that they were at best several years rusty, but that's exactly what I've being trying to get through to mr toad.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The master was an employee of the company (or regular freelancer, either way he made regular tweet to hot liquid saying he was instructing for them), he should be a known quantity irrespective of his tickets.

Of course you can squirm some more if you like.

I'm not squirming. My point is that Hot Liquid had an adequate people on board to make the go-no go decision and that was all they can really be expected to do. What you've written *supports* that, it doesn't contradict it.

So the charter company I posted a copy of my DS cert to yesterday were just asking me for fun?

Ok, just for fun, where is the charter, and what is name of the charter firm?

I'm willing to bet you don't need DS to hire in whatever area you're talking about, and I'm even willing to bet that even that specific firm will not require DS, in spite of anything written on their web site.

 

[fireball]

Thanks . I've already sorted that bit, but it's difficult to get one without DS, and if nothing else, the training I received was bloody good, so I don't feel ripped off in the slightest, whatever some people feel about RYA courses

Nothing wrong with the RYA courses that I can see - having done the DS practical a few years ago I realise I could've taught it - it certainly doesn't make you invincible!

One of the threads had a contribution from one of the crew - and iirc they were either being seasick or asking to go ashore - which the skipper ignored.

Now, I'm not saying the skipper should always take heed of the crew - that's why he's supposed to be skipper, with the knowledge and experience to make the correct judgement - but clearly in this case we had rising winds - with a significant gale forecast (known well in advance), inexperienced and seasick crew (DS or not - just how many DS's have experienced gales in the night?) and appears to us to be a bit of a gungho skipper looking forward to setting up the storm sails ... in the Dover straights!
As to HL's responsibility - yes, it is their responsibility having sold places on the boat to ensure the skippers plans were sensible. I've not been party to any discussion on what may or may not have been said between them and the skipper - but clearly he set out and got into serious trouble.
I don't recall a single person saying they would've set out on that course in that forecast - plenty had been out in those winds - but offshore and seemingly better prepared.

The RYA clearly believes that this company is not currently at a suitable standard to be accredited and have therefore removed their endorsement. I am pleased they have done this - not because I want HL to fail - but because it demonstrates that they DO value the reputation of the RYA training courses and the confidence that a member of the public should be able to have when entrusting sailing schools with their lives.