Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[toad_oftoadhall]

I know many have come to the defence of the owner/manager stating that he is one of the good guys in the business. Let us hope that lessons have been learnt, three major incidents is just too many for me.

Would I take anyone-anyone- to sea in january in a forecast 9. Nope.

But the manager *didn't* take anyone-anyone- to sea in january in a forecast 9, did he?

He selected a crew with qualifications way beyond that found on a 'normal' boat and delegated the go/no go decisions to them.

 

[awol]

No dispute there.

What I'm missing is if I hire a qualified RYA crew to deliver a boat to somewhere, and they wreck it, how is it my fault?

If I hired a boat from Hot Liquid and wrecked it would it be their fault?

But they didn't hire the boat. They paid for the opportunity to build miles on a preplanned delivery trip which was under time and direction constraints set by the company.
If the scenario had been as you described then the recent thread involving Reliance yacht deliveries where it has been alleged undue pressure was brought to bear on the hired skippers would appear more apposite.

 

[Flying Penguin]

He didn't select a crew on any more complex criteria than who was first to pony up the 200 quid fare. He selected the skipper, sold the other places as mile builders, as such he and the skipper have a duty of care to his paying punters. If you struggle with this simple concept, there is nothing anyone here can do to help you further.

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[toad_oftoadhall]

But they didn't hire the boat. They paid for the opportunity to build miles on a preplanned delivery trip which was under time and direction constraints set by the company.

If the scenario had been as you described then the recent thread involving Reliance yacht deliveries where it has been alleged undue pressure was brought to bear on the hired skippers would appear more apposite.

AFAIK Hot Liquid *didn't* put pressure on the Master [1] to sail. Indeed if the Master's tweets are to be believed he was looking forward to the trip.

If Hot Liquid put pressure on that changes things a fair bit in my view.

[1] He can't have put pressure on the rest of the crew - they could take the train home at will - but chose not to.

 

[dt4134]

[1] He can't have put pressure on the rest of the crew - they could take the train home at will - but chose not to.

To be fair I don't think they considered taking the train home till they were off Newhaven and by that stage there weren't any conveniently located stations.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

He didn't select a crew on any more complex criteria than who was first to pony up the 200 quid fare.

Ok so I should have said: "By fluke he ended up with a crew with qualifications way beyond that found on a 'normal' boat and delegated the go/no go decisions to them.".

Do you think it makes a difference to my point? [1]

In my view Hot Liquid were entirely within their rights to take RYA quals at face value. In fact it would have looked a bit odd if they'd said "Although we sell RYA quals we don't trust people who have them in our boats!".

Incidently if Hot Liquid were giving places on these trips to the "first to pony up the 200 quid fare" it raises the rather amusing idea that the boats with unqualified people made far better decisions and weren't wrecked. Which doesn't surprise me a all.

[1] Which is Hot Liquid were misinformed by the RYA about the capabilities of the people on board. People who couldn't make a simple weather call were walking around with RYA tickets.

 

[Flying Penguin]

[1] He can't have put pressure on the rest of the crew - they could take the train home at will - but chose not to.

He may not have done so, and of this was an isolated incident we probably wouldn't be seeing the action that the RYA has taken. That there were three serious incidents in 12 months is either bad luck or poor standards control, the RYA evidently believe the latter.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Ok so I should have said: "By fluke he ended up with a crew with qualifications way beyond that found on a 'normal' boat and delegated the go/no go decisions to them.".

Do you think it makes a difference to my point? [1]

Yes actually it does IMHO, it moves it from being a delivery situation with a hand picked crew, whose experience and currency is used to select those going and the broad plan, to a situation where those people may do one week a year in the Ionian and no more. They are not a known quantity and the cautious approach must be taken. That they demonstrated day skipper standard when they got the certificate is no guarantee that they are day skipper standard now. You do not launch an unknown crew into the teeth of a storm on the first trip out.

If this was an isolated skipper gone rogue or one isolated **** decision, they would probably still have their RYA badge. That they didn't loose it over the myth of Malham incident demonstrates that one bad decision and injured punter is not enough to be the sole cause of loosing RYA accreditation.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

He may not have done so, and of this was an isolated incident we probably wouldn't be seeing the action that the RYA has taken. That there were three serious incidents in 12 months is either bad luck or poor standards control, the RYA evidently believe the latter.

The RYA are welcome to their opinion. I'll see what the MAIB have to say before I draw a firm conclusion.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Absolutely valid stance. I will be awaiting it with particular interest, as I was out with another school boat on a similar trip at the time, the different being that we had bugged out and were in port 9 hours before they left Shamrock Quay...

It will be interesting to see if they have a position on what the skipper actually knew.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Yes actually it does IMHO, it moves it from being a delivery situation with a hand picked crew, whose experience and currency is used to select those going and the broad plan, to a situation where those people may do one week a year in the Ionian and no more. They are not a known quantity and the cautious approach must be taken. That they demonstrated day skipper standard when they got the certificate is no guarantee that they are day skipper standard now. You do not launch an unknown crew into the teeth of a storm on the first trip out.

If RYA sailing tickets do not make someone a "known quantity", they should stop ****ing selling them.

In practical terms there is no way Hot Liquid could refuse to let people with RYA tickets on their boats without further assesment but at the same time sell RYA tickets to punters.

 

[dunedin]

Well done RYA

+1

RYA gets a lot of (IMHO often unwarranted) stick on this forum, but in this case seems to have done the right thing in a relatively fast time frame for such important matters

 

[Flying Penguin]

If RYA sailing tickets do not make someone a "known quantity", they should stop ****ing selling them.

The question becomes one of currency, if you can demonstrate a standard for a test (for Course completion certificates this may just be enough to stop the instructor removing you on safety grounds), how often do you have to sail before that skill withers? It's a common problem in flying, to which the usual answer is currency limits, if you think that training certificates should require maintenance before being lost or have another suggestion, I (and the RYA I'm sure) am all ears.

 

[webcraft]

if you think that training certificates should require maintenance before being lost . . . .

erm - they do. Instructor qualifications have to be revalidated or upgraded every 5 years max.

- W

 

[Flying Penguin]

erm - they do. Instructor qualifications have to be revalidated or upgraded every 5 years max.

- W

Apologies, I meant day skipper, the qualification possessed by the paying crew on liquid vortex.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The question becomes one of currency

Then the RYA should put a time limit on all their tickets.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Then the RYA should put a time limit on all their tickets.

But if there is no licence required to skipper, what is the point of expiring tickets?

 

[webcraft]

Apologies, I meant day skipper, the qualification possessed by the paying crew on liquid vortex.

Day Skipper isn't really a 'qualification', and it certainly isn't a 'ticket'. it is a certificate saying you have attended and completed a course. If it had to be 'revalidated' then the RYA would undoubtedly be accused of milking the system.

DS does not automatically qualify or authorise you to do anything.

- W

 

[RobbieW]

[1] Which is Hot Liquid were misinformed by the RYA about the capabilities of the people on board. People who couldn't make a simple weather call were walking around with RYA tickets.

Part of HLs statement says of the crew "all were existing Hot Liquid sea school students and all had an RYA qualification". We understand that the certificates held were either at competent crew or day skipper level.

The RYA delegates the authority to issue those certificates to the chief instructor of schools approved under the RYAs scheme. So strictly the schools issuing the certificates are responsible for the skill levels of those holding them. The RYA role is more that of standard setter and monitor at these levels. Were there a series of incidents calling into question the competence of holders of those certificates, we should expect the RYA to take action to resolve that situation.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

But if there is no licence required to skipper, what is the point of expiring tickets?

This was a commercial vessel so AFAIK there *was* a requirement for a licence for the skipper, and quite right too.