Neeves
Well-known member
I'm learning about windlasses and I get a lesson on rock climbing as wellI love this forum
That's in title, horizontal or VERTICAL
Jonathan
Horizontal or Vertical?
- Thread starter NormanS
- Start date
That's in title, horizontal or VERTICAL
Jonathan
Forum Admin Team
Administrator
Several posts on the thread have been brought to our attention with regard to their tone. Can we respectfully remind users to adopt a civil manner when submitting their contributions to the forum.
Please consider and accept that it is possible that other users have differing experiences, or may not share the same viewpoint.
Similarly, on technical issues, users should accommodate those seeking clarity, no matter how basic the conversation may seem to them, again maintaining civil discourse.
Please do not comment on this post, the thread should remain on-topic.
Thank you.
Please consider and accept that it is possible that other users have differing experiences, or may not share the same viewpoint.
Similarly, on technical issues, users should accommodate those seeking clarity, no matter how basic the conversation may seem to them, again maintaining civil discourse.
Please do not comment on this post, the thread should remain on-topic.
Thank you.
Alan S
Well-known member
Don't understand that, Little Sister.
Wikipedia and WD&HO WILLS both say vertical axis.
sarabande
Well-known member
In all the ships, in all seas, I ever sailed. A Windlass has a vertical gypsy and a Cable Lifter is horizontal.
I'm now confused. Do you mean the rotational axis of the gypsy is vertical ? And what's a cable lifter ?
penberth3
Well-known member
Exactly, we're back where we started. A lot of people aren't expressing themselves clearly .
We've got a shaft axis and the plane of the drum/gypsy, with 90 degrees difference.
Alex_Blackwood
Well-known member
Exactly what I said the Windlass Gypsy is vertical and rotates vertically. Windlasses traditionally also have vertically rotating "Capstan" drums fitted. The cable lifter I referred to, resembled a capstan with a vertical drum and a horizontal horizontal rotation. The drum was similar in construction to that of a vertical gypsy unlike a capstan. The nomenclature "Cable Lifter" was the manufacturers (Clarke Chapman, Gateshead) description of the machine. Having sailed with both they were always referred to as a "Windlass" for the vertically rotating machine and a "Cable lifter" As in the manufacturers description.
I am not going into it any further, there has been enough nonsense in this thread. I reality it doesn't matter one jot if you refer to either as windlass. Vertical or Horizontal, does it??
Poignard
Well-known member
To answer the OP's question, which was about WINDLASSES:
If the axis of rotation of the gypsy is horizontal, then it's a horizontal windlass.
If the axis of rotation of the gypsy is vertical, then it's a vertical windlass.
Please refer to posts 2 and 3 for examples.
If the axis of rotation of the gypsy is horizontal, then it's a horizontal windlass.
If the axis of rotation of the gypsy is vertical, then it's a vertical windlass.
Please refer to posts 2 and 3 for examples.
NormanS
Well-known member
I hesitate to come in here again for obvious reasons. 
Would there be some logic in referring to the traditional windlass (the type with the horizontal shaft), as a "windlass"? And to save a lot of confusion, call the capstan type (with the vertical shaft), a "capstan"?
I think the descriptive terms used by some manufacturers or selling agents have blurred the meanings, leading to some confusion.
I may be wrong (of course), but I always refer to a vertical warping drum, as a 'capstan', and a horizontal drum, simply as a 'warping drum'.
Would there be some logic in referring to the traditional windlass (the type with the horizontal shaft), as a "windlass"? And to save a lot of confusion, call the capstan type (with the vertical shaft), a "capstan"?
I think the descriptive terms used by some manufacturers or selling agents have blurred the meanings, leading to some confusion.
I may be wrong (of course), but I always refer to a vertical warping drum, as a 'capstan', and a horizontal drum, simply as a 'warping drum'.
penberth3
Well-known member
I hesitate to come in here again for obvious reasons.
Would there be some logic in referring to the traditional windlass (the type with the horizontal shaft), as a "windlass"? And to save a lot of confusion, call the capstan type (with the vertical shaft), a "capstan"?
I think the descriptive terms used by some manufacturers or selling agents have blurred the meanings, leading to some confusion.
I may be wrong (of course), but I always refer to a vertical warping drum, as a 'capstan', and a horizontal drum, simply as a 'warping drum'.
It only needs the missing noun 'shaft' to make it clear. Sloppy use of language.
I get your point about capstan/warping drum, but warping can be done with a capstan?
Refueler
Well-known member
Absolutely warping can be done by Capstan ... why not ?
Older MN ships usually had two Capstans on the poop deck for mooring duty.
thinwater
Well-known member
Having written for many magazines, the policy is to first consult the OED ...
1. Windlass
1294–
A device for hoisting and hauling, typically consisting of a cylindrical beam or drum which can be turned in order to wind in or let out a rope or chain wrapped around its circumference, used esp. for weighing anchor on a nautical vessel or raising loads from a mine shaft or well.
The drum or roller of a windlass is typically arranged horizontally, unlike that of a capstan.
Note that it says typically, leaving the definition dangling open.
After consulting the dictionary, you consult manufacturers, since that is the usage of the readers and the trade. In this case, the result nearly universally is that a windlass can be either vertical or horizontal, and they don't sell capstans. A few list them both ways.
So like much of language, you won't find a single, definitive answer. However, the manufacturers and OED are uniform in that vertical and horizontal refer to the orientation of the axle.
1. Windlass
1294–
A device for hoisting and hauling, typically consisting of a cylindrical beam or drum which can be turned in order to wind in or let out a rope or chain wrapped around its circumference, used esp. for weighing anchor on a nautical vessel or raising loads from a mine shaft or well.
The drum or roller of a windlass is typically arranged horizontally, unlike that of a capstan.
Note that it says typically, leaving the definition dangling open.
After consulting the dictionary, you consult manufacturers, since that is the usage of the readers and the trade. In this case, the result nearly universally is that a windlass can be either vertical or horizontal, and they don't sell capstans. A few list them both ways.
So like much of language, you won't find a single, definitive answer. However, the manufacturers and OED are uniform in that vertical and horizontal refer to the orientation of the axle.
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
This now complicated the discussion being both having a horizontal axis and a vertical axis drum
AngusMcDoon
Well-known member
Quick do, as linked above in #26.
vyv_cox
Well-known member
And Maxwell. I have one.
thinwater
Well-known member
Maxwell labels them both ways. The model number has a V or H for vert and horz.
HRC10 - Maxwell
Vertical windlasses Archives - Maxwell
Quick does the same,
Quick SpA - Products and Accessories for the Boating Industry - made in Italy
Like most vendors, the word "capstan" refers to a rope drum, be it horz or vert.
Quick SpA - Products and Accessories for the Boating Industry - made in Italy
---
So like it or not, today the industry sells vertical and horizontal windlasses, and capstan now means a dedicated rope or cable drum (not combination gypsy). The English language evolves whether you want it to or not. "Texted" should have proved that. And "simples" to mean something is obvious rather than basic garden herbs.
HRC10 - Maxwell
Vertical windlasses Archives - Maxwell
Quick does the same,
Quick SpA - Products and Accessories for the Boating Industry - made in Italy
Like most vendors, the word "capstan" refers to a rope drum, be it horz or vert.
Quick SpA - Products and Accessories for the Boating Industry - made in Italy
---
So like it or not, today the industry sells vertical and horizontal windlasses, and capstan now means a dedicated rope or cable drum (not combination gypsy). The English language evolves whether you want it to or not. "Texted" should have proved that. And "simples" to mean something is obvious rather than basic garden herbs.
ylop
Well-known member
Interesting I hadn't realised it had a sailing etymology. I've heard it used in the UK in "sales" circles. Once a salesperson has achieved his target for the year he may sandbag (hold back) orders to make the start of the next year easier. I was told it was a reference to flooding - you can delay or hold the flood to some extent and then if required move the bags. I suppose it is possible that two different etymologies with similar meaning have arisen.Definitely an Americanism, on that few Americans know the actual origin of. It is a sailing term.
Actually, she is not sandbagging, she is loafing. Of course, there is no line on the drum.
In the American idiom, a sandbagger is a person that is better at something than they let on, such as a golfer that understates his handicap. A person who bets on billiards and pretends to be a beginner, until after the bet is set. Or a sailor with concealed modifications to his boat that either break or skirt the class rules. The last one is also a cheater.
Originally, sandbaggers were sailboats that used shiftable ballast (sandbags), huge rigs, and thus were faster than their length implied.
Sandbagger sloop - Wikipedia
NormanS
Well-known member
Yes, including the word 'shaft' would make the whole thing absolutely clear.
thinwater
Well-known member
More like language drift by people that didn't understand the original slang origin. Common with sailing-based expressions. People use a phrase without understanding it.
Imagine my Mom's horror when I explained to her, at the age of 80, what SNAFU actually meant, and that all of her WWII-age friends knew this. It was a thigh-slapper.
