HMRC U-turn on tax on returning boats

[Chris_Robb]

M

Mady my point badly .
Basically the UK was part of the EU, so where do the export part comes into it .
The boat moved from one part of the EU country (UK) to another part of the EU ( greece/italy/france) its not been exported

Got it in one Vic. It' all one area till 31st Dec

 

[Chris_Robb]

All yachts built in or brought into the EU on or after 1 January 1985 must be able to prove their VAT paid status.

A boat built before this date is deemed to have VAT paid status if it was in private ownership and within the EU at midnight on 31 December 1992.

The VAT problem: top tips for yacht buyers and owners

If your boat was built before 1 Jan 1985 and was in any of the EU states on 31.12.1992 then it is deemed VAT paid and EU goods, free to circulate in the EU. Technically you need documents to prove this but the boat is so old and unless it's a superyacht or something worth 6 figures or more, I doubt you will ever have a problem.

There is an EU law for boats in countries acceding to the EU, basically any boats over 8 years old and in the country joining the EU on the date the country accedes is deemed to be VAT paid. The 1985 date is derived from the 1993 date of the Maastricht treaty coming into effect. Croatia joined in 2013 and boats in Croatia built before 2005 were then deemed VAT paid. I bought my 1999 boat VAT unpaid in 2011 - it got moved to VAT paid status in 2013 because it was over 8 years old when Croatia acceded to the EU.

If you have a pre-1985 boat then I really wouldn't worry as long as it is in the cruising area you intend to use it in on 31.12.2020 - it will retain its VAT deemed paid status IMO.

Good summary, and as Vic has pointed out, it is all ONE area

 

[syvictoria]

Couldn't insurance records be used to prove a yacht's whereabouts in recent years?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Couldn't insurance records be used to prove a yacht's whereabouts in recent years?

My insurance say all European waters .
I could be any where

 

[Poignard]

Couldn't insurance records be used to prove a yacht's whereabouts in recent years?

'
"Elbe to San Sebastian including inland waterways connected to the sea. "

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Couldn't insurance records be used to prove a yacht's whereabouts in recent years?

... insurance is one possible source to provide clues, if they want to find out where someone has been then a combination of social media records, bank card transactions, AIS data, google/apple info on phone location, marina records, passport movements, cash withdrawals, yacht parts purchases, caches on personal electronic devices - there exists a complete electronic record of your life and whereabouts - the problem is it is fragmented across multiple systems belonging to multiple companies and covered by data privacy laws - the holy grail of marketing and advertising companies is to join all this up - which is why there is a big market for personal data.

The government could demand the data from everyone who holds it if they overturned data privacy laws, but what would the cost/benefit be?

 

[syvictoria]

My insurance policy also, at present, included a winter berth location. There is a centralised system for car insurance, so I guess a precedent has kind of been set.

Banking transactions couldn't be relied upon as they show where you are and not necessarily the boat.

 

[Clancy Moped]

Diesel receipts?

 

[syvictoria]

Diesel receipts?

I sail, I don't have diesel receipts!! ?

 

[Clancy Moped]

I sail, I don't have diesel receipts!! ?

How full is your tank when you winterize?

 

[Kelpie]

I think it would take legal action for the government to pursue somebody based on a trail of receipts and Instagram posts.
Would this be a criminal or civil case? This affects the burden of proof required.

 

[Chris_Robb]

My insurance say all European waters .
I could be any where

For insurance purposes Turkey is European waters -- so a non starter....

This really is a storm in a teacup - 5 minutes filling in ToR form and job done.
Lets concentrate on 6 month visa free travel - each country in turn will need approaching privately - dont wait for government - they will be far to busy - I bet Greece will be first in line....

 

[Graham376]

I think it would take legal action for the government to pursue somebody based on a trail of receipts and Instagram posts.
Would this be a criminal or civil case? This affects the burden of proof required.

Unless they've changed their ways, HMRC just used to issue an assessment and leave it up to the recipient to prove they don't owe the tax. When in business, we had a VAT inspection and contrary to most law, it was down to us to prove our returns were correct, not for them to prove they weren't.

P.S. Just remembered watching a documentary about UK Customs at airports where sniffer dogs were finding large amounts of cash on people. The money was confiscated (even below the €10k allowable limit) until the holder could prove it was legitimate although there was no evidence or reason to believe it was illegally obtained.

 

[Poignard]

Unless they've changed their ways, HMRC just used to issue an assessment and leave it up to the recipient to prove they don't owe the tax. When in business, we had a VAT inspection and contrary to most law, it was down to us to prove our returns were correct, not for them to prove they weren't.

P.S. Just remembered watching a documentary about UK Customs at airports where sniffer dogs were finding large amounts of cash on people. The money was confiscated (even below the €10k allowable limit) until the holder could prove it was legitimate although there was no evidence or reason to believe it was illegally obtained.

Guilty until proved innocent

 

[sailaboutvic]

For a start there not going to be many boats returning if this goes ahead and the once that do are not all going to be doing it on the same day .
Let test this out .
Out of everyone that's posted here , if this happen how many would take their boat back to the UK to get tax a second time .
I start it rolling .
Not me

 

[[163233]]

Does Gib count as UK for this kind of thing?

 

[Poignard]

For a start there not going to be many boats returning if this goes ahead and the once that do are not all going to be doing it on the same day .
Let test this out .
Out of everyone that's posted here , if this happen how many would take their boat back to the UK to get tax a second time .
I start it rolling .
Not me

'
If I did I would wait and see what the HMRC assessement of VAT would be and then, if it was unacceptably large, I would challenge it on the grounds of her being built long before the introduction of VAT, her value being low because it would probably take a long time to sell her and I would also probably realise less than I paid for her.

But I am not familiar with the law on VAT and HMRC's guidelines so I would have to do some serious reading if it seemed likely I would have to pay a lot of VAT.

In the meantime, I have far more interesting things to read!

 

[Graham376]

Does Gib count as UK for this kind of thing?

Waiting to see about that. It's outside the Customs Union and UK VAT but I have no idea if the "territory" will count as being in UK waters.

I won't be returning my boat to UK anyway, as a suitable liveaboard cruiser it's most likely worth more for that purpose with EU VAT paid status, which it would lose if sold in UK.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Guys, why are you so worried. In pretty well all cases nothing will change. If you come back after Jan 2024, all you will do is fill in the ToR form which you can do in one minute. This form has been used for years for yachts coming back on ships.

For god sake stop worrying a out nothing. The RYA is incapable of seeing a bus coming straight for them.......

Yes there are some issues and that just requires a statement to clarify. Please don't waste your MPs time, crying Wolf.

 

[GTom]

That’s my understanding but if that UK boat was in the EU on 31/12/20 it would retain it’s EU VAT status, indefinitely.

Wouldn't bet on that one, the EU also has a 3 years rule.