HMRC U-turn on tax on returning boats

[Irish Rover]

My boat, which was VAT paid is in Turkey. Last entered the EU in May 2017, maintaining its VAT paid status, but due to this year's events I could not get to it so it lost its VAT paid status in May this year. Nothing to do with Brexit but everything to do with the EU's downright crooked rules that can force anyone to pay VAT twice on the same goods.

If I was in your position I wouldn't give up just yet. I'd try sailing to one of the Greek Islands next year and check-in as normal as if you'd just been out for a few months or a year. I doubt they'll notice but if they do you can argue that you were prevented from returning in 2020 because boats were not allowed arrive from Turkey. At that stage you'll be a non EU resident so worst case scenario they'll refuse and you'll have to get a temporary importation transit log. It's certainly worth a try in my opinion.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The u turn is on timing, not applying the rules.

HMRC originally told RYA it would be applied 3 years from the end of December 2021, but now say 3 years from date of export. Which means many now have 3 months, during the worst part of the year, to arrange getting their boats back.

No, it's not. There is no mention of it from HMRC, just the RYA . Legally we are in the Customs union till 31st Dec. They cannot scrub that out as that would be retrospective legislation. It doesn't matter anyway as the is effectively no dead line. The 3 year limit only means you have an exemption to make the claim to return, nothing else. Don't worry and don't feed the RYA' s fake news.

 

[differentroads]

My boat actually had German VAT paid on it. I have no intention of sailing back to the UK, but at 75 I will have to sell it sometime or other, and will get less because its no longer EU VAT paid. I have no doubt that UK civil servants were complicit in putting the VAT rules in place, after all the bastards spent the entire period of our EU membership gold plating EU regulations, usually to our disadvantage as a country..

If I've understood it right, since your boat will be in the EU on 31st December, it will retain its EU VAT paid status and your ability to sell ot as VAT paid in any of thos 26 countries. The only part of the yacht buying market that you'll be cut out from is someone who intends bringing it back to the UK. I had a mate who did that, searching out absolute bargains, using his profits to trade up each time. Not exactly helping to maintain boat prices in the Med though!
The VAT situation might close down that opportunity. That said, I have another friend who has now bought his second boat in Spain in two years to sail across the Atlantic to export to Brazil. He gets to cruise in the Med all summer, sometimes with paying guests, get a couple of paying guests for the TransAt leg, then sells in Brazil at a profit. Gotta love that sort of entrepreneurship!

 

[Poignard]

My boat has been in France for six years.

I sailed her out to Southern Brittany in 2014, and liked it so much I decided to leave her there under a dry-sailing contract. She has not been back to the UK since 2014.

I know she's there. The boat yard knows she's there.

But, as far as I am aware, no UK authority knows where she is; or has cared. She has never been officially 'exported' and remains under British registry.

If I bring her back after 31 December 2020, no-one in authority will know where she has been, or for how long. or that she is back in UK waters.

For all they know, she could have been in UK waters for the last six years, or sailing around the world.

So my question is: If the law requires me to report the return of something that never officially left, how do I do that?

 

[sailaboutvic]

My boat has been in France for six years.

I know she's there. The boat yard knows she's there.

But, as far as I am aware, no UK authority knows where she is; or cares. She has never been officially 'exported' and remains under British registry.

If I bring her back after 31 December 2020, no-one in authority will know where she has been, or for how long. or or that she is back in UK waters.

For all they know, she could have been in UK waters for the last six years, or sailing around the world.

So my question is: If the law requires me to report the return of something that never officially left, how do I do that?

There be some one here who will spend a lot of time googling the answer for you .
The fact is many won't bother bring boats back to the uk if this rule comes to play ,
I know I won't , but then I never plain to bring her back , we was at one time thinking of sailing around Ireland and Scotland for say half a year before heading back south for the winter again . But it seen that won't come into play if this happen .
Although it doesn't matter what I or you think but it a blood dirty trick they playing on all of us .
Like you there no record of my boat bring out of the UK unless you count marina contract but do we need to worry about a Marina in Greece passing the info back to the UK rev , some how I don't think so .
The be lots of AIS being turned off .

 

[Irish Rover]

If I've understood it right, since your boat will be in the EU on 31st December, it will retain its EU VAT paid status and your ability to sell ot as VAT paid in any of thos 26 countries. The only part of the yacht buying market that you'll be cut out from is someone who intends bringing it back to the UK. I had a mate who did that, searching out absolute bargains, using his profits to trade up each time. Not exactly helping to maintain boat prices in the Med though!
The VAT situation might close down that opportunity. That said, I have another friend who has now bought his second boat in Spain in two years to sail across the Atlantic to export to Brazil. He gets to cruise in the Med all summer, sometimes with paying guests, get a couple of paying guests for the TransAt leg, then sells in Brazil at a profit. Gotta love that sort of entrepreneurship!

If you read his earlier post you will see his boat has been outside the EU since 2017 and his planned return to the EU this year was prevented by the C19 situation.

 

[sailaboutvic]

UK boat owners left stranded in Europe

 

[sailaboutvic]

No longer EU VAT paid despite the fact that I have the original VAT invoice, because I could not get to it this year to sail it into the EU, so it has now been outside for more than three years.

Norman isn't your boat in Turkey? Turkey is part of the EU customs union I think .

 

[Chris_Robb]

There be some one here who will spend a lot of time googling the answer for you .
The fact is many won't bother bring boats back to the uk if this rule comes to play ,
I know I won't , but then I never plain to bring her back , we was at one time thinking of sailing around Ireland and Scotland for say half a year before heading back south for the winter again . But it seen that won't come into play if this happen .
Although it doesn't matter what I or you think but it a blood dirty trick they playing on all of us .
Like you there no record of my boat bring out of the UK unless you count marina contract but do we need to worry about a Marina in Greece passing the info back to the UK rev , some how I don't think so .
The be lots of AIS being turned off .

Dont have to spend any time googling the answer

This is the contents of the form you need to fill in under RGR ToR relief.

WE hereby declare that:
The yacht sailed from or was exported from the EU: 27 NOVEMBER 2012

The purpose of export from the EU [Read UK next year]: CRUISING

All Customs Duties and VAT due in the EU have been paid and not
refunded? YES

Has the Yacht been sold to another person or company during the time
it has been outside the EU? [So if the boat was sold and bought within the EU before the 31st Dec2021 it will have not been exported from the UK as we were part of the EU customs territories - which was a single contiguous area that the UK was a significant player. Sale after that date is definitely a no no. The is a possibility that the UK will not see this that way, but it is effectively retro legislation.

Has the yacht undergone any major work other than maintenance?
If YES give full details

Value for Customs purposes £90.000.00

This is simple so why worry about being back in the UK before 3 years - its already in law as transferred presumably by the "Great Reform Bill" - so just don't worry!

 

[Kelpie]

Sorry to ask for the third time, but does any of this apply to boats over a certain age?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Dont have to spend any time googling the answer

This is the contents of the form you need to fill in under RGR ToR relief.

WE hereby declare that:
The yacht sailed from or was exported from the EU: 27 NOVEMBER 2012

The purpose of export from the EU [Read UK next year]: CRUISING

All Customs Duties and VAT due in the EU have been paid and not
refunded? YES

Has the Yacht been sold to another person or company during the time
it has been outside the EU? [So if the boat was sold and bought within the EU before the 31st Dec2021 it will have not been exported from the UK as we were part of the EU customs territories - which was a single contiguous area that the UK was a significant player. Sale after that date is definitely a no no. The is a possibility that the UK will not see this that way, but it is effectively retro legislation.

Has the yacht undergone any major work other than maintenance?
If YES give full details

Value for Customs purposes £90.000.00

This is simple so why worry about being back in the UK before 3 years - its already in law as transferred presumably by the "Great Reform Bill" - so just don't worry!

So if someone brought their boat say a year ago 2019 from another British guy in the EU who sailed it from the UK say five years early are you saying that would not be liable for VAT a second time ?

 

[Irish Rover]

Norman isn't your boat in Turkey? Turkey is part of the EU customs union I think .

Turkey has a Customs Union agreement with the EU but is not part of the EU Customs Union. A boat kept in Turkey is definitely classed as being outside the EU and the 3 year rule applies.

 

[RobbieW]

Sorry to ask for the third time, but does any of this apply to boats over a certain age?

Perhaps, the waiver for VAT documentation for boats built before mid 80s depends on the location of the boat on a specific date in the early 90s, and being able to prove that. Also on whether a chargeable event has taken place since ie sold outside the EU. I'm sure there'll be someone along to clarify shortly though ?

 

[Chris_Robb]

So if someone brought their boat say a year ago 2019 from another British guy in the EU who sailed it from the UK say five years early are you saying that would not be liable for VAT a second time ?

He should not - but if there decide the EU never existed than that would be the case. However there would be a huge outcry - and the declaration above would be filled in forcely - 95% getting away with it perhaps - and the courts might rule that under the European Court of Human Rights, the Law was in Breech of Human Rights and therefore null and Void - lets hope we dont go there!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Perhaps, the waiver for VAT documentation for boats built before mid 80s depends on the location of the boat on a specific date in the early 90s, and being able to prove that. Also on whether a chargeable event has taken place since ie sold outside the EU. I'm sure there'll be someone along to clarify shortly though ?

All these things go back to the UK and what they do with their view on the Customs Union whilst we were still a member. See above

 

[sailaboutvic]

He should not - but if there decide the EU never existed than that would be the case. However there would be a huge outcry - and the declaration above would be filled in forcely - 95% getting away with it perhaps - and the courts might rule that under the European Court of Human Rights, the Law was in Breech of Human Rights and therefore null and Void - lets hope we dont go there!

OK thats clear , I don't understand this export bit , the UK was part of the EU so how can they say its been exported , if you sail your boat from the south coast to Scotland, has it been exported
If a French guy sail to Italy has his boat been exported ?

 

[Chris_Robb]

If I was in your position I wouldn't give up just yet. I'd try sailing to one of the Greek Islands next year and check-in as normal as if you'd just been out for a few months or a year. I doubt they'll notice but if they do you can argue that you were prevented from returning in 2020 because boats were not allowed arrive from Turkey. At that stage you'll be a non EU resident so worst case scenario they'll refuse and you'll have to get a temporary importation transit log. It's certainly worth a try in my opinion.

>Norman_E said:
My boat, which was VAT paid is in Turkey. Last entered the EU in May 2017, maintaining its VAT paid status, but due to this year's events I could not get to it so it lost its VAT paid status in May this year. Nothing to do with Brexit but everything to do with the EU's downright crooked rules that can force anyone to pay VAT twice on the same goods.<

Norman, you may loose EU Vat status, but you certainly wont loose UK status under ToR rules.

A few coming back, will no doubt feign ignorance and try to come into Greece. If you manage to do it and get issue with an UNLIMITED Transit Log (as opposed to one dated max 18 months) you will have suceeded in wiping out the past. Some who has been out a long time, may well have spent a month or so in Greek waters so for god sake keep papers like the DEKPA (only within the 3 years), and the E-Tepia receipt from 2019.....

 

[Chris_Robb]

OK thats clear , I don't understand this export bit , the UK was part of the EU so how can they say its been exported , if you sail your boat from the south coast to Scotland, has it been exported
If a French guy sail to Italy has his boat been exported ?

Ha Ha - Scotland has not yet left us.....! And a french guy to Italy is still in the EU Customs Territories - which this is all about

 

[sailaboutvic]

M

Ha Ha - Scotland has not yet left us.....! And a french guy to Italy is still in the EU Customs Territories - which this is all about

Mady my point badly .
Basically the UK was part of the EU, so where do the export part comes into it .
The boat moved from one part of the EU country (UK) to another part of the EU ( greece/italy/france) its not been exported

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Sorry to ask for the third time, but does any of this apply to boats over a certain age?

All yachts built in or brought into the EU on or after 1 January 1985 must be able to prove their VAT paid status.

A boat built before this date is deemed to have VAT paid status if it was in private ownership and within the EU at midnight on 31 December 1992.

The VAT problem: top tips for yacht buyers and owners

If your boat was built before 1 Jan 1985 and was in any of the EU states on 31.12.1992 then it is deemed VAT paid and EU goods, free to circulate in the EU. Technically you need documents to prove this but the boat is so old and unless it's a superyacht or something worth 6 figures or more, I doubt you will ever have a problem.

There is an EU law for boats in countries acceding to the EU, basically any boats over 8 years old and in the country joining the EU on the date the country accedes is deemed to be VAT paid. The 1985 date is derived from the 1993 date of the Maastricht treaty coming into effect. Croatia joined in 2013 and boats in Croatia built before 2005 were then deemed VAT paid. I bought my 1999 boat VAT unpaid in 2011 - it got moved to VAT paid status in 2013 because it was over 8 years old when Croatia acceded to the EU.

If you have a pre-1985 boat then I really wouldn't worry as long as it is in the cruising area you intend to use it in on 31.12.2020 - it will retain its VAT deemed paid status IMO.