HMRC U-turn on tax on returning boats

[Black Sheep]

Here a question how do they know you returned to the UK and left again , come to that how do they know you even left ?
What stop me taken the boat back on a busy summer day entering the UK finding a marina berth and staying ?

Come to that, what stops me from filling my cockpit lockers with cannabis in Europe, and bringing it back on a busy summer day?

The answer is the same in both cases - quite possibly nothing. You might well get away with it. But if you get caught, you're likely to lose your boat and your freedom.

My understanding is that after 31 Dec, boats will be expected to clear in and out of the UK when travelling to/from Europe. So that's your answer to "how do they know you returned to the UK and left again".

As for "come to that how do they know you even left ?" - There is a small amount of scope, until Dec 2023, to claim that you exported the boat within the last three years but there is no paper trail as you weren't required to clear out of UK. In some cases it will be true, in others it won't be. You might get away with it. But there's quite a lot at stake. As with the cannabis example, successful 'busts' are likely to be intelligence-led. You'd better hope that nobody in officialdom thinks it might be an easy win to set up a small group targetting yacht smugglers, reviewing blogs, Youtube channels and the like for evidence of length of absence from the UK.

So there's your choice - try to sneak in under the radar (literally!), or clear in legally but lie to the Border Force/Customs hotline people. Or play by the book.

In the mean time, action on the political front makes sense. I agree being made to pay UK VAT twice on the same boat seems unfair. But if it does become the law, it would be a braver man than I who decided smuggling was a better option than compliance!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Come to that, what stops me from filling my cockpit lockers with cannabis in Europe, and bringing it back on a busy summer day?

The answer is the same in both cases - quite possibly nothing. You might well get away with it. But if you get caught, you're likely to lose your boat and your freedom.

My understanding is that after 31 Dec, boats will be expected to clear in and out of the UK when travelling to/from Europe. So that's your answer to "how do they know you returned to the UK and left again".

As for "come to that how do they know you even left ?" - There is a small amount of scope, until Dec 2023, to claim that you exported the boat within the last three years but there is no paper trail as you weren't required to clear out of UK. In some cases it will be true, in others it won't be. You might get away with it. But there's quite a lot at stake. As with the cannabis example, successful 'busts' are likely to be intelligence-led. You'd better hope that nobody in officialdom thinks it might be an easy win to set up a small group targetting yacht smugglers, reviewing blogs, Youtube channels and the like for evidence of length of absence from the UK.

So there's your choice - try to sneak in under the radar (literally!), or clear in legally but lie to the Border Force/Customs hotline people. Or play by the book.

In the mean time, action on the political front makes sense. I agree being made to pay UK VAT twice on the same boat seems unfair. But if it does become the law, it would be a braver man than I who decided smuggling was a better option than compliance!

Thank for your reply , it made me laught , there one hell of a different from sailing a boat back into the uk and sailing one loaded with drugs ,

 

[Graham376]

Here a question how do they know you returned to the UK and left again , come to that how do they know you even left ?
What stop me taken the boat back on a busy summer day entering the UK finding a marina berth and staying ?

In common with thousands of others, we've crossed back to the UK from Ireland and France many times and have never been questioned. Whether people will follow the rules in future I suppose will depend on what reporting becomes necessary but, more importantly, what the penalties will be for not doing.

I've written to my MP and suggest others do the same.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What stop me from sailing in on

In common with thousands of others, we've crossed back to the UK from Ireland and France many times and have never been questioned. Whether people will follow the rules in future I suppose will depend on what reporting becomes necessary but, more importantly, what the penalties will be for not doing.

I've written to my MP and suggest others do the same.

i think you know as well as I do the amonth of boat flying back and fro over the summer would keep broader force busy for a month of Sunday if they going to be checking every boat in case they happen to been out of the UK , I think well I know there Be more interested in people smuggling and drug running then you or I returning back .

 

[Kelpie]

I wonder how a trip to Ireland will work. I'm assuming there will be a resumption of the common travel area that existed before either nation joined the EC/EEC/EU. So no mechanism in place to record movements of vessels between these countries.

 

[st599]

In common with thousands of others, we've crossed back to the UK from Ireland and France many times and have never been questioned. Whether people will follow the rules in future I suppose will depend on what reporting becomes necessary but, more importantly, what the penalties will be for not doing.

I've written to my MP and suggest others do the same.

RYA forum said UK government will be rolling out their new online reporting of entry and exit for Private vessels and planes early next year. Apparently they've even seen a prototype.

 

[Black Sheep]

In common with thousands of others, we've crossed back to the UK from Ireland and France many times and have never been questioned.

Of course not - there's never been any need. Well, not since common movement of people & goods came in. But that's about to change.

Whether people will follow the rules in future I suppose will depend on what reporting becomes necessary but, more importantly, what the penalties will be for not doing.

Add a third dependency - the political/administrative will to enforce the regulations.
As others have pointed out, reporting will be necessary from EU.
Penalties for not complying with the reporting regs - I don't know.
Penalties for importing into the UK a vessel on which VAT is payable, but deliberately evading the payment - that sounds like smuggling to me. Confiscation of vessel; big fine; time in chokey; criminal record
Political / Administrative will to enforce? Imponderable. Politically they probably don't care hugely either way (hence write to MP). Administratively - if nabbing naughty yachties turns out to be an easy way to hit targets, they will do it, no question.

I wonder how a trip to Ireland will work. I'm assuming there will be a resumption of the common travel area that existed before either nation joined the EC/EEC/EU. So no mechanism in place to record movements of vessels between these countries.

Ooh that's a good point! I *think* that the CTA applies to people rather than vessels or goods? In which case you'll need to clear the vessel in/out for Eire the same as for France, even if the people on board in theory don't need to go through immigration checks. But I'm guessing. Does anybody know for sure?

 

[Norman_E]

My boat, which was VAT paid is in Turkey. Last entered the EU in May 2017, maintaining its VAT paid status, but due to this year's events I could not get to it so it lost its VAT paid status in May this year. Nothing to do with Brexit but everything to do with the EU's downright crooked rules that can force anyone to pay VAT twice on the same goods.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Here a question how do they know you returned to the UK and left again , come to that how do they know you even left ?
What stop me taken the boat back on a busy summer day entering the UK finding a marina berth and staying ?

Nothing, there is nothing in writing saying I even left the UK.... urghhh until now.

Just fill in your c1331 and state your last port of call, Cherbourg.

 

[Chris_Robb]

What i dont u.derstand, is that there has been no change in the law, and the established practice is that the 3 year rule does not apply, provided it has not been sold, and that it has been used as your home during that time.

So why the change in practice now?

 

[Graham376]

What i dont u.derstand, is that there has been no change in the law, and the established practice is that the 3 year rule does not apply, provided it has not been sold, and that it has been used as your home during that time.

So why the change in practice now?

Depends on how the existing law is enforced. In the past, private boats returning have been treated as expats goods. There is also the point about when a boat was exported. If it is now within the EU in free movement, is it exported when we leave the EU/Customs Union or, was it exported when it left the UK?

The goods must be returned no later than 3 years after they were exported in order to get this relief. We may be able to waive this in special circumstances such as:

• professional and personal effects returning with returning UK or EU expatriates

Pay less import duty and VAT when re-importing goods to the UK and EU

As with everything else, we won't know for some time what new laws will be introduced.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What i dont u.derstand, is that there has been no change in the law, and the established practice is that the 3 year rule does not apply, provided it has not been sold, and that it has been used as your home during that time.

So why the change in practice now?

Basically Chris they going to need every penny they can get to make up their short fall for the money they given away , the money got to come from some where .
I doubt if this is going to effect most of us , some have been out too long to claim the three year rule , other like my self have brought my latest boat away from the UK so I not the original owner, and many have brought the boat in the EU , so only a few would any way be able the claim the three year rule any way most will sell before going back .
What it will do is kill the UK boat market boats in the UK will only be attractive to other in the UK , I very well doubt anyone from the EU going to go to the UK to buy a boat and have to pay VAT when they return to the EU .

 

[Chris_Robb]

Depends on how the existing law is enforced. In the past, private boats returning have been treated as expats goods. There is also the point about when a boat was exported. If it is now within the EU in free movement, is it exported when we leave the EU/Customs Union or, was it exported when it left the UK?

The goods must be returned no later than 3 years after they were exported in order to get this relief. We may be able to waive this in special circumstances such as:

• professional and personal effects returning with returning UK or EU expatriates

Pay less import duty and VAT when re-importing goods to the UK and EU

As with everything else, we won't know for some time what new laws will be introduced.

I think that is the issue, HMRC was going for a change on the law, but they have now decided to do nothing..... in which case why should the standard practice since VAT was invented be changed now?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Nothing, there is nothing in writing saying I even left the UK.... urghhh until now.

Just fill in your c1331 and state your last port of call, Cherbourg.

Talking for myself here the last time there was any record that I'm in the eu was when I check into Croatia three years ago .
I have no dealing with port police or custom only other thing is the winter marina I booked into and I be surprise if their record end up in the UK hands

 

[st599]

Nothing, there is nothing in writing saying I even left the UK.... urghhh until now.

Just fill in your c1331 and state your last port of call, Cherbourg.

C1331? Don't you mean the UK's flash new online reporting tool for yachts and private planes that they promise is somehow integrated in to the Radar tracking?

 

[sailaboutvic]

What I find worring is if our government decide people who taken residency in other countries are not longer entitled to what they been entitled for years and before people say they can't do that , that can do what they think they can get away with .

 

[nortada]

In common with thousands of others, we've crossed back to the UK from Ireland and France many times and have never been questioned. Whether people will follow the rules in future I suppose will depend on what reporting becomes necessary but, more importantly, what the penalties will be for not doing.

I've written to my MP and suggest others do the same.

Well aware of your way with words and because I am an idle shit, please PM a copy of your letter to your PM so I can amend as appropriate and it send to mine.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

My boat, which was VAT paid is in Turkey. Last entered the EU in May 2017, maintaining its VAT paid status, but due to this year's events I could not get to it so it lost its VAT paid status in May this year. Nothing to do with Brexit but everything to do with the EU's downright crooked rules that can force anyone to pay VAT twice on the same goods.

The rules are the same in the UK ... out of the country for more than 3 years and the boat is considered exported permanently - therefore attracting import duty and VAT on its return. Same rules in the UK. The Inland Revenue have the ability to waive this if you can prove the following.

Time limits for returning goods
The goods must be returned no later than 3 years after they were exported in order to get this relief. We may be able to waive this in special circumstances such as:

• specialised goods returning to the UK from long-term hire or loan agreements outside the UK and EU
• building equipment or machinery returning to the UK after use in capital projects outside the UK and EU
• exhibition goods returning after long-term display or storage outside the UK and EU
• collectors’ or heritage items originally manufactured in the UK or EU and returning from overseas after re-acquisition by a UK dealer or investor, for example collectable items of furniture or ceramics
• professional and personal effects returning with returning UK or EU expatriates
• goods owned by Crown Servants returning to the UK after their postings overseas, the time limit for Crown Servants is currently 6 years, Crown Servants include:
  • diplomatic staff
  • armed forces
  • embassy
  • consular personnel

Contact the National Import Reliefs Unit for more information on these special circumstances.

Pay less import duty and VAT when re-importing goods to the UK and EU

Notice 8: sailing your pleasure craft to and from the UK

... I'm afraid the UK also has "downright crooked rules that can force anyone to pay VAT twice on the same goods." ... nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with export/import duty. Give them a ring, they might consider the covid pandemic grounds for extending the 3 years - also shop around the EU countries within reach of your boat to see if any of those will waive the 3 year rule due to covid - you might get lucky.

You will be able however, if you do not have citizenship or residency in an EU country, to use the boat in Europe under 18 month temporary admission rules without paying VAT or import duty again, but would be unable to sell it as VAT paid in the UK or EU.

This is what the UK voted for.

 

[Norman_E]

The three year rule is only a rule in the UK because we were in the EU and accepted the same VAT rules as an EU member. We have left the EU and there is no good reason why we should continue with the same rules from January next year.

As for getting lucky, I doubt it. The boat will still be in Turkey on 31st December.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The three year rule is only a rule in the UK because we were in the EU and accepted the same VAT rules as an EU member. We have left the EU and there is no good reason why we should continue with the same rules from January next year.

As for getting lucky, I doubt it. The boat will still be in Turkey on 31st December.

Keep it there Norman you much better off then taken it back .