Help finding a first boat

[Rascal3]

The kids are great at camping so the sleeping should be fine. I agree with the long passages but id try to break them up if we did them and stop at the beach on route, do a bit of fishing, let them help helm if the conditions were right, have games and tablets to keep them occupied. Getting to the isle of white would be a week's holiday trip probably via Christchurch. Most sailing would be 1-2 hrs find a beach chill out and swim with bbq on the beach in the evening or similar.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi Rascal3

Christchurch is a great place, sailed from there in the late 60’s to mid 80’s, just watch out for the ‘Run’ at Mudeford and the moveable feast of the Bar.

 

[Rascal3]

I'm looking at the sailboat data on the list of boats and seeing fairly different displacement to ballast, sail to displacement and displacement to length ratios. Am I right in thinking the higher the displacement to ballast the more stable and the higher the sail to displacement and length to displacement the better the boat will perform in light winds?

 

[Rascal3]

Is 250kg for a galv trailer too light an estimate and is 200kg for a 4hp 2 stroke motor cushions sails ropes anchor and fenders about right

 

[steveej]

The kids are great at camping so the sleeping should be fine. I agree with the long passages but id try to break them up if we did them and stop at the beach on route, do a bit of fishing, let them help helm if the conditions were right, have games and tablets to keep them occupied. Getting to the isle of white would be a week's holiday trip probably via Christchurch. Most sailing would be 1-2 hrs find a beach chill out and swim with bbq on the beach in the evening or similar.

All I would say is that the speed a small sailing boat will go at is not the same as a 38ft fairline, you will need to be using tides to your advantage and even then most passages are going to be much longer than 1 - 2 hours. They will want to go down below after 30 mins and play with their toys etc. They also tend to get sleepy with the rocking motion and spend a lot of time in their cabin or laying down in the saloon. Easy to do this on a big boat that is not being thrown around a lot. On a 19 footer they will be sea sick down below and crying when the their playdough goes flying everywhere.

The camping bit only applies when your tied up but you do actually have to get there first.

Not trying to put you off but you would be better off with a centaur and a cheap drying mooring. If you want to do it more than once, I think that is about the cheapest most realistic way to do it. If the kids were 16 years old your current idea would work, but not the age they are now.

What we found on the Hurley 22 was that because it is all open plan, the kids go to sleep by say 8pm, we then have to be up in the cockpit to get them to sleep. Sleeping in the cockpit at 6ft5 on any of these boats is not going to be an option as the cockpits are not long enough.

 

[Rascal3]

I've been talking to several people about the list of boats i had and been recommended to focus on the stability data as this will likely be after with the kids to narrow the field. Ive focused on the displacement vs ballast then as the important one and also the overall displacement and beam as keys to stability. I'll aim for the displacement to be towards the top end of my weights at 650-750kg and the higher displacement balance figures unless she's beamy.

I think this therefore rules out the mirror mk 2, nimrod, sailfish, precision 18 and sand piper so progress at culling my list.

I'm left with the following

Prelude 19
Manga 19
Swift 18
Pirate express
Oday 192
Oday 20
Matilda 19/20
Cracksman catamaran
West wight potter 19

The Matilda is low on the displacement/ ballast ratio compared to the others but is really beamy at almost 8ft does anyone have any info on how stable these really are.

Looking at the sail area to displacement figures I've read that above 20 is classed as likely to be a lively vessel. What exactly do they mean by that.

 

[Tranona]

on boats of this size the common "rules" do not necessarily apply because you are on the cusp of a scaled up dinghy or a scaled down yacht. The basic theory is though that more ballast equals greater stability and ability to carry sail. However many boats rely on crew for "ballast" as in a dinghy and form as in wider, flatter hulls for initial stability. Drop or swing keel centreboard boats which most trailer sailors are also rely on draft and on some a ballasted keel to add to stability when sailing.

Yes, SA/Displ is a measure of power to weight ratio and 20 is on the high end. That means potentially higher speeds for a given level of wind and a need to reef earlier. however given that crew weight is a significant proportion of total weight on low displacement boats the performance can be blunted by large crews.

Most of the boats on your list except perhaps the Swift are designed for your type of sailing. surprised that you have taken the Sailfish off as that would be high on my list as it is a well respected boat with good accommodation and built in large numbers so plenty about. A bit crude and ugly but tough and easy to sail.

 

[Rascal3]

I took the sailfish off because it's only about 450kg displacement whereas all the others are closer to 650-750. I figured that that is quite a difference at around 1/3rd that it would be noticeably more sensitive to weight distribution and more easily tossed about compared to a heavier vessel. Was that a mistake.

I asked about sa/dsp figures because some on my list are high 20's low 30's and as this is my first sailing boat wondered if they might need a more experienced sailor and it would be sensible to focus on the ones closer to 20.

 

[Rascal3]

Why do you think the swift shouldn't be on the list Tranona

 

[PeteCooper]

Why do you think the swift shouldn't be on the list Tranona

I sail a Micro Gem which falls into the Micro 18 category as does the Swift 18. Now admittedly the Gem is quicker than the Swift 18, but with my experience of the Gem I would not expect the Swift to be a particularly stable boat. Boats that fall into the Micro 18 category tend to be more dinghy with a lid on than true cruiser.
On the topic of trailer sailing, I live 5 mins from a marina with a slipway but chose to keep my boat on a pontoon in the marina rather than trailer sail as that would be too much faff for me. I often nip down after work and have an hour or so out on the water and I couldn't do that as a trailer sailor.

 

[Tranona]

I took the sailfish off because it's only about 450kg displacement whereas all the others are closer to 650-750. I figured that that is quite a difference at around 1/3rd that it would be noticeably more sensitive to weight distribution and more easily tossed about compared to a heavier vessel. Was that a mistake.

I asked about sa/dsp figures because some on my list are high 20's low 30's and as this is my first sailing boat wondered if they might need a more experienced sailor and it would be sensible to focus on the ones closer to 20.

The Sailfish has a tubby hull so good form stability and I would guess a modest sail area. Might not be exciting to sail but stable and (relatively) comfortable. if the weight is correct then more leeway for getting under your towing limit.

My comment on 20 being high is more related to bigger boats - typical cruisers are in the 15-17 range. Clearly smaller boats have greater sail area because displacement rises greater in proportion with crew on board.

 

[Balbas]

I have a wayfarer and kids who are 4 and 6.

We've just bought an old Westerly Longbow. The reality of trailer sailing (even though we live in the SW and are surrounded by the sea) is that its not practical with a young family. Invariably I rush like mad to get the boat set up whilst the wife tries to keep the kids out of trouble. Then whilst we're sailing the kids always want something (food, drink, to dip their toes in the water) at the most inopportune times. And then at the end of the day the kids are fractious and grumpy whilst I'm trying to strip the boat down and load it back up to the car. I find I need to allow 90 minutes to pay the launching fee, get set up, load the boat, park the car, launch the boat, park the trailer etc.

With a yacht the 'flash to bang' between arriving and sailing should be about 30 minutes (I'll let you know next week...).

If you're absolutely set on the trailer sailor route I'd suggest something like a Drascombe coaster (although I've no idea how much they weigh - I've a LandRover so when I looked at one before settling on a yacht weight simply wasn't an issue, if it fitted on a trailer I could tow it!)

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Hi Rascal3 I think you would do well to look at the Andersen 22, they have always had enthusiastic reviews, and have a good sailing pedigree, perhaps a little cramped below but well worth a look. There is an active association, with usually two or three boats for sale.

My second boat was an Anderson 22. Way too heavy for most cars and the mast was too heavy for me to erect on my own without a crane. Whats more with its bulb keel it drew quite a lot to get on trailer so though launching was ok I mostly had to stand waste deep in cold water to get it back. And it tended to pull tow car back down slipway. It weighed a bit over 1 ton but trailer weighed 250kg, and outboard and store another 100kg

My earlier Sandpiper was much easier and could be towed easily by my Lancia but was ok when I just had one child but somewhat small for a family of four and bit too light to punch through choppy water.

Unless you go for a Drascombe lugger I'd suggest you join sailing club and simply leave boat there except for possible excursions once every few years. Oh and seawater simply destroys trailer wheel bearings so trailing a boat any distance can be fraught if bearing not regularly cleaned and repacked with grease - which is somewhat time consuming for a family man.

However if you think a full cabined yacht towable essential then remember that towing limit on car is dependant on load on towing ball and braking ability. Obviously you need a fully braked trailer but a 4 wheeled trailer reduces towing ball load. You car at a pinch can tow quite a big boat, your problem is launching and recovering it.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I agree that my suggestion in my earlier reply, to consider the Anderson 22. did not take into account the weight of the boat and the towing vehicle, but in a later reply I did question the ease of trailer sailing which from experience back in the 70’s when the trailer sailer options were probably at their peak.
Re stepping the mast, over the last 10 years I have lowered and stepped the considerably longer and heavier mast of my Invicta26 ar the beginning and end of each season, often single handed with the use of an ‘A’ frame,
My main point in suggesting the Anderson was that from past experience, the Anderson was I think one of the better trailer sailer designs.