Helicopter Rescue off Dover

[awol]

Quite frankly I wish to see Liquid Sailing charged with the costs for that rescue.

While I totally understand that attitude I am both proud and glad that they won't be. To draw the line between a deserving rescue and an undeserving one would, I suggest, need more wisdom than Solomon.

Ok, this time it is difficult to imagine any logic that put them where they were in the weather that was well forecast; impossible to read the quoted "tweet" without reaching a conclusion about the Tweeter; but change the circumstances a bit and at what point would rescue charging begin? Crew sick and/or injured? Boat without steering or power? Going out when forecast has force 6 or 7 or 8 or... later? Skipper is a dickhead?

While a lot of people object to the free NHS (go read the dodgy silicone tit rubbish on the Lounge), and to free Mountain Rescue and RNLI, I am, as I said, proud and glad to live in a society which has members willing to finance and provide such services without needing a profit motive or a cost benefit analysis.

 

[Talulah]

In my earlier days I set off on Boxing Day from the Hamble bound for London.
The boat was a Beneteau Oceanis 390.
The forecast was Force 6/7.
Shortly after leaving a storm warning was issued for imminent Force 10.
We got knocked down twice whilst still West of Chichester and turned and headed into Portsmouth before the full storm hit.
Being fairly naive at the time when the forecast came for Force 10 I thought "Great, we'll be in Brighton in no time."
Now if I was to replay those events on board Liquid Vortex it would pan out as follows:
Skipper has to be in London for Boat Show. (We had to be in London for Dec 31st.)
Crew informed by skipper of new weather forecast. Discussion follows. Conversation along the lines of it will be rough but with wind from behind it won't be as bad as going into it and the trip will be quick. In addition discussion of Safe Havens further along the coast.
Some of the crew elect to continue. Faith in Skipper, Boat etc
Some of the crew want to head for cover but only make slightly discouraging noises as they don't want to be party poopers.
So the skipper given half approval continues against better judgement due to pressures.

When we did turn in to the weather it was a real eye opener. On the helm you needed a ski mask and snorkel there was so much water in the face. (No snorkel on board.)

So I can imagine in my mind what was going on in Liquid Vortex. In our case we continued the following day and the trip was great.

 

[prv]

While I totally understand that attitude I am both proud and glad that they won't be.

+1

It's a commercial operation so there are various books that perhaps should be thrown at them, but charging for a genuine rescue however caused is not the way to go. As I understand it, the RNLI opposes the idea of charging for callouts due to any cause.

Pete

 

[ksutton]

Re the AIS data, if I'm reading the data correctly, it looks like the AIS stopped transmitting at 0352 and re-commenced transmitting at 0913. That seems strange to me, given that it could have been an aid to location in the rescue.

When you track AIS transmissions on the WWW, you are receiving data picked up by a shore station. Sometimes these stations will have black spots with poor or no coverage. What you can see is the AIS signal being lost just east of Hastings and not being picked up again until north of Dover. It could have been weak transmission from the yacht, but equally it could have been the shore station not capable of picking it up
However I cant understand why the station in a critical location near Dover would have been down on reception or coverage.

 

[fireball]

While I totally understand that attitude I am both proud and glad that they won't be. To draw the line between a deserving rescue and an undeserving one would, I suggest, need more wisdom than Solomon.

Ok, this time it is difficult to imagine any logic that put them where they were in the weather that was well forecast; impossible to read the quoted "tweet" without reaching a conclusion about the Tweeter; but change the circumstances a bit and at what point would rescue charging begin? Crew sick and/or injured? Boat without steering or power? Going out when forecast has force 6 or 7 or 8 or... later? Skipper is a dickhead?

While a lot of people object to the free NHS (go read the dodgy silicone tit rubbish on the Lounge), and to free Mountain Rescue and RNLI, I am, as I said, proud and glad to live in a society which has members willing to finance and provide such services without needing a profit motive or a cost benefit analysis.

I do see what you're saying - and partly agree with it ... I think any method of recharging would have to be in court applied "fine" form - ie having had all the evidence available weighed and tested in court.

There was a rower who went out of Portsmouth this morning - rescued - should he be fined ? Well, I don't know - what is his experience level, what is his supposed knowledge - if it's just some twit who thought it would be a good row then possibly not - if it's some experienced rower planning on testing his ability then why hasn't he got safety cover ... if it's some experienced rower that should know better then possibly "fine" him ...

As for Vortex - isn't that skippered by a "qualified" skipper ... who should know what forecasts to check prior to departure - he should also know the ability of his crew. The RNLI report stated there was only 1 person onboard in a fit state to help with the transfer of RNLI crew to the distressed vessel ... it can be seen that he was expecting strong winds - although we haven't seen his passage plan for this morning - so I think (on the face of it) that we're in the "should know better" category and therefore foot the bill.

I understand being proud of an organisation that will risk their own lives to save others, no matter what ... but it is NOT FAIR to put out to sea on the belief that YOUR LIFE WILL BE SAVED .... we should assume responsibility for our own lives.

If I had paid to be crew on that passage then they would've seen me OFF the boat at the previous stop.

 

[prv]

However I cant understand why the station in a critical location near Dover would have been down on reception or coverage.

Last time I looked at this (which was quite a few years ago) the posting of AIS data to the Web was done by hobbyists, mostly radio ham types (that sort of person if not actually a qualified operator). They'd pick up whatever signals they could from their house and feed them into one of several aggregation servers, from which various display websites would draw their data.

I don't know if there is now a more official feed of data from Coastguard antennas or whatever, but if not then the reason for the gap is as simple as the fact that there is no altruistic radio geek living nearby.

A fact worth remembering when people assume that what they see on Web-based AIS sites is gospel.

Pete

 

[onesea]

If this is as it appears the third life threatening incident in less than 12 months, the company should be placed under a(nother) full investigation.

If it was commercial pressure on the skipper they should look to the management, as well as the skipper.

The company is obliged at some point to stop thier skippers and say do not sail. That passage in this weather with that crew and boat is to high a risk.

For once the case appears quite black and white, unless there is something beyond these forums knowledge. If I was management I would be worried about legal implications, from one quarter or another.

 

[photodog]

If this is as it appears the third life threatening incident in less than 12 months, the company should be placed under a(nother) full investigation.

.

One bad incident can happen to the best of us... two is bad luck... three, well something is not right.

They lost a boat on the return of this journey last year... and then the next they appear to be no more risk averse... bizarre.

 

[PhillM]

Hot Liquid

I sent my eldest son with Hot Liquid last year, in spring to do his Comp Crew. His skipper was the guy that got into trouble on Goodwin Sands on the way back from the Boat Show. I found out after I had let my boy go ith them. I know this because he was telling the story to the crew. In his version he said he was asleeep at the time, so it was not his fault. He was a young chap, apparently a nice gyy, but no way a mature skipper.

I don't agree with charging for rescue. That way people will die because the skipper doesnt want to face a bill. I guess their insurance will go up, so perhaps that might make them think about better planning in future?

I was thinking of using them for my Coastal Skip courses and a coulple of day courses. Now I am thinking again. I don't want to put money in the pockets of people who take unreasonable risks with customers (and their own) lives.

Last point, I live just outside Southampton. For the last three days the fields around us have been full of seagulls, taking shelter from the coming storm. If even dumb birds can see its unsafe to be at sea ......

 

[Bav34]

The company is obliged at some point to stop thier skippers and say do not sail.

I was in a windy Cherbourg sometime last year and the Solent based 40 footish charter yacht alongside us had to stay because they were not allowed to take it out if there was a 6 in the forecast.

Strange that any company will let a boat out in a 10/11 just because the skipper is 'qualified'

 

[aslabend]

Sorry if I saw a F9 forecast, let alone a F10, I wouldn't even "try".

Chicken!

Seriously though, they could have had a nice sail round to Chichester, easy night + morning on the hook, set off 14:00 with the flood behind them and wind more from the NW, they would probably had an exciting rather than eventful sail. Oh isn't hindsight wonderful.

Luckily (thanks to CG & RNLI) the only damage will be to reputations & a yacht with a smell that will outlast religion.

 

[snooks]

Oh isn't hindsight wonderful.

Maybe having myself been out in gales and storms etc I have the hindsight of those experiences. But I don't think I'd need that hindsight to realise that going out when an 8,9 and 10 are forecast, is not the smartest of moves

 

[ksutton]

The gun ho attitude of the skipper looking forward to surfing downwind with a small amount of sail is fine to some extent in open deep water. The straights of Dover are no place to look forward to in 40+ knots of south westerly wind. It was HW Dover about 06:00 today and he would have experienced wind over tide early this morning.
Very very steep 5 meter short seas, sick crew, cold, exhaustion, boat going too fast even with small head sail, falling off each wave, probably water in the cockpit, heading for difficult navigation area just ahead of him and no one to help out.
Definitely the wrong call by the skipper and he had many hours advance warning and optional ports before hand.

 

[Vara]

Oh isn't hindsight wonderful.

This isn't a hindsight issue, non of the conditions were unexpected, they were flagged up on every met source since Saturday.

Even the Gardeners Question Time forecast mentioned it in passing.

 

[fireball]

<snip>I don't agree with charging for rescue. That way people will die because the skipper doesnt want to face a bill. I guess their insurance will go up, so perhaps that might make them think about better planning in future?
<snip> I don't want to put money in the pockets of people who take unreasonable risks with customers (and their own) lives.

Last point, I live just outside Southampton. For the last three days the fields around us have been full of seagulls, taking shelter from the coming storm. If even dumb birds can see its unsafe to be at sea ......

I still think there should be a method for charging - perhaps charging isn't the right word - imposing a fine may be more appropriate - as it would need the evidence of how the event occured to be weighed.

Something should be done - not "to prevent this ever happening again" ... but to re-inforce the outdated notion that we should be responsible for our own decisions.

As you say - if the seagulls can work it out then a "qualified skipper" should've been practicing knots in a harbour somewhere - not risking the lives (sod the boat) of his crew.

 

[photodog]

Well I suppose the MAIB will be conducting a investigation... but of course they dont have the power to prosecute.... Is this a case for the HSE???


I just cant help but think that this company should have a pretty clear H and S policy which should lay out the weather conditions under which they shouldnt operate... and allowing a yacht with this sort of inexperienced fair paying crew out on this passage with that forecast of which the skipper was fully aware strikes me as being something which any reasonable H and S appraisal would have flagged up.....

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I wonder if the RYA (or is it the MCA) would consider whether the skipper is still competent to hold his Yachtmaster Certificate.

 

[Bobc]

Surely the charter company must take ultimate responsibiliy for the decisions of it's staff.

Therefore, I would expect to see the MCA looking to revoke their commercial licences if they have shown to be negligent on numerous occasions.

 

[Seven Spades]

I think he will rue the day he posted that Tweet as he has really provided the evidence against himself.

 

[photodog]

Given at 1.30am he was showing 20knots.. (apparent?) Are we being a bit harsh here?

Are we fair weather sailors lynching someone because he got caught out?

If he had arrived succesfully would we have applauded and said that it was proof a modern AWB can take it??