Hard Top for Blue Angel (Canados 70s)

[Portofino]

Yup mapism, cat c32 has no EGT. There are npt ports ready to fit a sensor if I want, and I'd use maretron sensors to feed the info to n2k, but I'm not convinced of the need and don't have time. I'd need 4 sensors and that is punchy amount of £££ because nothing about Maretron is cheap!

Anyway, % load factor gives me a good enough proxy. If the engines reach manufacture rpm with the boat loaded, which they do, and if that shows 100% load factor, then if I have about 70% load factor at 70% max rpm, I can conclude that EGT is likely ok. Conversely if the engines themselves are ok but 100% load factor produced 70% max rpm (=overloaded or over propped) there is something wrong, and I don't need to see an elevated EGT to know that. Happy to hear alternative theories but that's my off-the-cuff thinking

I need to play around bit ,with it - but from memory the load is not linear with speed /rpm -nor the EGT .

As it accelerates at 9-10 knots hits a bow wave as D speed is exceeded -so load shoots up faster than speed ,
Pops up at say 17-18 knots initially -load increases --- then settles back as rpm increase as it s now planing and min drag .
Once planing then load inc is linear to max .

EGT -seems to be a combo of load and when turbo,s spool up ie 1300 -1500 rpm EGT shoots up Drops back off the plane .

 

[MapisM]

I need to play around bit ,with it - but from memory the load is not linear with speed /rpm -nor the EGT

Yep, of course it isn't. And it isn't the same for each hull, either.
That is reflected in the curves published by most engine builders, where aside from the max power at any given rpm, you can see also the "real" power supplied, in the so called propeller demand curve.
But I'm putting "real" in brackets, because the prop demand curve is just an ideal approximation, based on displacement hulls, where the power required to punch through the water increases exponentially with the speed (hence also engine rpm).
With P boats, during the transition from D to P speed, you might well have a higher load at X rpm compared to cruising at the lowest possible P speed at Y rpm (even if X<Y).

All that said, I would think that jfm train of thought is correct, particularly if he knows (as he surely does) the "normal" loads at each rpm, as measured during the seatrials in optimal conditions.
If and when fouling and high load should badly affect (=increase) the load, that's bound to be reflected in higher EGT, I reckon.
I wouldn't dare guessing how much load increase can still be considered "tolerable", though - maybe our resident diesel bible can enlighten us on that...?
Anyway, I'd love to have a real time EGT indication, also when load numbers are available. And even more so without that, as in any mechanical governor engines.
In fact, BartW, in your boots, considering also how far you've gone in rebuilding the engines, I'd definitely consider installing some sort of EGT sensors.
Though I must say that I have no clue about their cost, and if jfm defined it "punchy", pretty sure the things aren't cheap...!

PS:
Thanks for posting the pics of your display.
You're now making me wonder if I missed the EGT when I played with the latest version of those MAN displays (called MMDS 6.3 IIRC, and with the buttons on their right side), because I did look for that number, but couldn't find it.
If Deleted User is reading this, do you remember by chance if you can get the EGT on some page of your displays?

 

[BartW]

In fact, BartW, in your boots, considering also how far you've gone in rebuilding the engines, I'd definitely consider installing some sort of EGT sensors.
Though I must say that I have no clue about their cost, and if jfm defined it "punchy", pretty sure the things aren't cheap...!

I have been browsing in the "Ceresoli" (paper) catalog ,
this is a supplier of marine technical accesories in Fiumicino where I have bought some typical Italian accesories on a few occasions. (www.ceresoli.net)
they have all kind of Gauges and sensors, but no EGT Gauges,
online I found quite a few Gauges and sensors, for the US car tuning market,
even a Tutorial video how to install them...
Its probably worth investing in a pair after having learned here about the importance of EGT
I don't need the Maretron network sensors, no network yet in the engine room

 

[vas]

If I get the time (yeah right...) I've got all the kit I need in order to install my custom arduino bits with up to 4 temp things, two for EGT and was thinking of another two on the rubber exhaust hose (to get an early warning of blocked raw water flow) I just need a couple of relaxing days my laptop and soldering gun. Not sure I'll get these days before August though

Once I get it working, it wont cost more than 100euro in hardware for all the bits (including the expensive arduino board)
I'll report how I progress and happily built a few and/or give you detailed instructions.

ONLY CATCH is that you'll need NMEA2000 network.

V.

 

[MapisM]

Its probably worth investing in a pair after having learned here about the importance of EGT
I don't need the Maretron network sensors, no network yet in the engine room

Agreed. Also re. the Maretron stuff, whose only advantage is a neat integration with the existing onboard display(s) - but I'm sure you wouldn't struggle to find space for a few additional gauges.
But mind, I'm afraid that you would need a pair of sensors+gauges for EACH of your V engines, so 4 in total.

 

[MapisM]

was thinking of another two on the rubber exhaust hose (to get an early warning of blocked raw water flow)

Just a thought, V: in all the high performance boats I've seen, where upon failure of the raw water flow it's just a matter of seconds before frying some very expensive engines, there is a raw water PRESSURE gauge/alarm, rather than temp.
That can instantly highlight a problem if any - faster than a temp sensor.
And for engines temp control, I suppose you've already got temp gauges for the closed cooling fluid anyway.

 

[MYAG]

.............................I would swear that even in more modern common rail MAN engines (I'm thinking of Deleted User boat, whose displays are also more modern than yours), there isn't the EGT in any screen - though I could be wrong..............................

They should do, my MMDS display certainly does and with a very nice and easy to read at a glance graphic on the screen showing EGT before and after turbo iirc. Also have EGT visual and audible alarms on lower and fly helms independent of MMDS screen which of course facilitates passive monitoring of EGT whilst laying on the fly sunpad sipping an ice cold beer for those longer autopiloted passages.... :encouragement:

 

[MYAG]

Nice project Bart, hardtop will be a fantastic addition to an already top spec boat, the crowning glory for what will surely make BA the most complete C70 out there...... go for it. I agree with you regarding weight, it wont make a jot of difference in the real world of your boating and will equate to having a few extra persons on the fly.... so what....

 

[vas]

Just a thought, V: in all the high performance boats I've seen, where upon failure of the raw water flow it's just a matter of seconds before frying some very expensive engines, there is a raw water PRESSURE gauge/alarm, rather than temp.
That can instantly highlight a problem if any - faster than a temp sensor.
And for engines temp control, I suppose you've already got temp gauges for the closed cooling fluid anyway.

interesting P.,

yes I do have VDO temp sensors and gauges for the closed circuit cooling system (duplicated with the RS11 onto the MFD and GMI10 on the flybridge), so I'm fine on that front.
Raw water pressure I could do, but I wonder WHERE to fit the sensor and what range of pressures it's going to be measuring as I recon it wont be more than .something of a bar, dunno 3-5psi???
Also my 6.7lt 330bhp IVECOs are neither high performance nor expensive, so I think I may be able to live with the rubber exhaust hose temp monitoring which btw will increase rather rapidly if raw water flow stops whilst cruising along at 8kn or even 17kn. The only disaster I can think of is having to labour for an hour or so (6h later) in order to change the impeller and clean the raw water filter...

However, if someone knows what pressure and where to fit such a gauge I'm open to suggestions.
Another advantage I can think of is NOT having to drill a hole in the 125mm (iirc) exhaust hose and find a way to secure the sensor in there...

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

Just a thought, V: in all the high performance boats I've seen, where upon failure of the raw water flow it's just a matter of seconds before frying some very expensive engines, there is a raw water PRESSURE gauge/alarm, rather than temp.
That can instantly highlight a problem if any - faster than a temp sensor.
And for engines temp control, I suppose you've already got temp gauges for the closed cooling fluid anyway.

Yes on Page 2 MMDS -we have "waterpump" pressure -I think that's the raw impeller sea water 1bar showing then .
Above it is the " expansion tank " that's the closed cooling circuit .

MMDS also has 3 levels of alarm and warning lights
1- if parameter is outside factory norm - a little bit - sounds off ,but keeps running .
2-parameter is further outside -alarm sounds off and rpm is cut to 1000 .
3- parameter is deemed too far outside -engine alarms + shuts down on its own

All is stored in easy access memory / date /time /parameter
So hopefully in theory a"frying " engine should not happen -er if it all works

Sits back to wait for someone to chime in and say they have fry,d a MAN with MMDS

 

[MapisM]

They should do, my MMDS display certainly does and with a very nice and easy to read at a glance graphic on the screen showing EGT before and after turbo iirc. Also have EGT visual and audible alarms on lower and fly helms independent of MMDS screen which of course facilitates passive monitoring of EGT whilst laying on the fly sunpad sipping an ice cold beer for those longer autopiloted passages.... :encouragement:

Wow, even before/after turbine? That means four sensors (and display readings) for each engine!
I obviously had a bit too much of the ice cold beer that you mention, when I looked for EGT while cruising on Deleted User boat, because there's no logical reason why his engines/displays shouldn't report that, if yours do...

 

[MapisM]

I wonder WHERE to fit the sensor and what range of pressures it's going to be measuring as I recon it wont be more than .something of a bar, dunno 3-5psi???

Sorry V, in hindsight I threw in a suggestion without actually being able to give you enough details to put it in practice.
In fact, I have no clue about what should be the appropriate water pressure range for your engines.
Fwiw, I can tell you that in big block petrol engines the range varies a lot between idle and WOT, but I'm talking of engines running up to 6k rpm.
On my old Fountain (and back in those days, I was assured by a Merc Racing engineer that this behaviour was fine), I had around 5psi at idle, somewhere between 15 and 20 while cruising, and up to 25 WOT.
Below is a pic with the gauge, whose range I suppose is typical for most engines - at least petrol, at which Livorsi gauges are targeted.

 

[Nick_H]

I have been browsing in the "Ceresoli" (paper) catalog ,
this is a supplier of marine technical accesories in Fiumicino where I have bought some typical Italian accesories on a few occasions. (www.ceresoli.net)
they have all kind of Gauges and sensors, but no EGT Gauges,
online I found quite a few Gauges and sensors, for the US car tuning market,
even a Tutorial video how to install them...
Its probably worth investing in a pair after having learned here about the importance of EGT
I don't need the Maretron network sensors, no network yet in the engine room

Did you look at the link in Latestarter's post? It's a difficult website to follow, but this is the page with sensors and gauges: http://www.designatedengineer.com/Xhaust.html. The twin gauge looks neat, so you could have 2 sensors and one twin gauge for each engine, as I assume from Mapism's post you have V configuration engines?

It seems as though you may also need to weld female 1/8 NPT adaptors to the exhaust outlet manifold, unless you already have them with blanking plugs (as I do) or the material is thick enough to drill and tap.

 

[MapisM]

The twin gauge looks neat

Agreed, I also saw it, and even if on my boat the engines have a very easy life, never going anywhere near high loads, at that price I was also giving them a thought!
BUT, did you understand if the sensor is included?
The price would make me think it isn't, though I couldn't actually see the sensor advertised separately, in that webpage...

PS: Doh! Sorry, just found it, written in red in the very same page you linked. LS didn't call it a mickey mouse website for nothing...

 

[BartW]

Did you look at the link in Latestarter's post? It's a difficult website to follow, but this is the page with sensors and gauges: http://www.designatedengineer.com/Xhaust.html. The twin gauge looks neat, so you could have 2 sensors and one twin gauge for each engine, as I assume from Mapism's post you have V configuration engines?

It seems as though you may also need to weld female 1/8 NPT adaptors to the exhaust outlet manifold, unless you already have them with blanking plugs (as I do) or the material is thick enough to drill and tap.

yes exactly,
2 x twin meters are on the wish list / todo list

I'm quite sure there is enough "steel" to drill and tap, if there is no adaptor yet, on the turbo exhaust output

we have gone completely off topic, but thats no problem,
and this EGT is subject in two threads in parallel,
but anyway very interesting new information for myself (and a few others I guess)

thank you all for your contributions

 

[BartW]

Sorry to those that didn’t relaise that this is a revived old thread,
but the project is back on the table.

So far we didn’t find the time nor motivation to do this hardtop project, and not that I have more time currently, but the rebuild bug stroke me again, supported by the desire for myself as the captain to be able to helm the boat in sunshade
Here are some pics from a hard top, very similar to the model we are aiming at:









Honestly speaking apart from the building challenges, I still find this a bit top heavy. Our idea was to make it more slim, but again, I don’t have the courage nor time to get on with this.
So my mind is turning in circles going back to older and simpler idea’s.


Here is old fashion canopy model, that still is or was a possible candidate:








And this was my modern looking, easy to make on a short term, model for a temporary solution.













But 1.5y ago, I came across this, and I am seriously considering to use this as a model for a soft top on Blue angel:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

IMHO a boat with 70ft+ length and low profile such as yours can wear a hardtop and not look top heavy. The hardtop on the Canados in your photos looks great. Where I have an issue with hardtops is on sub 60ft boats, particularly newer designs which are already top heavy looking without a hardtop. Whatever lightweight materials the builder uses, the hardtop has to significantly affect handling on smaller boats as well

 

[vas]

Bart,

good to see that you're coming to your senses and want some shade

re the options you list:

grp moulded one, does look a bit top heavy, problem is that the relatively angular ply superstructure of BA will "ask" for a more angular solution and not too smoothed, so you're going for a custom one, right? expensive aren't these?
plan for a roll top thing opening some of it, or fixed? JFM would probably have an ball park figure for the weight of one setup from his M2

the de Valk solution is neat, curious how you're going to secure the poles, need at least two strong points say 400-500mm apart to get decent strength without compromising the integrity and waterproofness of the f/b deck.
also need an easy way to pick it up I guess...

don't like the leopard one, actually don't mind the idea, really hate the rope passing around the frame to secure the tent, weld a flange with holes on the inside and secure it like that and I wouldn't mind at all (probably I'd prefer that to the other solutions tbh!)

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

don't like the leopard one, actually don't mind the idea, really hate the rope passing around the frame to secure the tent, weld a flange with holes on the inside and secure it like that and I wouldn't mind at all

I couldn't agree more.
That thing could be OK in a small walkaround, but completely out of place in a Leopard.
Btw, a side advantage of HTs is that they can also be used to fully enclose the f/b, which is practically impossible with that "open" solution.

There are better alternatives to welded flanges, though - which btw would make the steel structure harder to fabricate.
My personal choice, when I built the foldable HT in my previous boat, was to have a double ring of peripheral tubes, allowing the cover to go under the lower one and above the upper one, on its internal side. The cover was still held in place with just a rope, connecting the lower border with the internal "lip" above it, which was stitched internally to the cover itself.
And it did allow side covers to be attached around the border, which had one zipper along each of the four sides.
Below is a pic already posted in the past, just to give the idea.
But there are several others, including some specific of the steel structure, in this old thread.

Ref. the overall look of an HT, I'm with Deleted User.
It's almost impossible to make a sleek and elegant one in sub-60' boats, but on BA (which is actually above 70', in spite of her model name) it's bound to look the part!

 

[BartW]

We made quite some progress at the time with the design of the grp option, and the sliding roof,
And financially it was all very feasible,

This is one of the last version of the 3D design,
it just needed to be made a bit smaller, not wider than the radar arch,
at my co is a sketchup drawing nearly ready.
but again no motivation to go ahead with this atm.




So we were looking for a quick solution;
that Feadship example above is cheap and easy todo,

2 fixing poles can be placed in the position of the old antenna’s (Elly would be extremely exited when the antenna’s finally go ;-) )
And two more can easily be fixed on the outside of the FB bulwarks
As in this quick drawing




But then, the Leopard solution seems more solid, and permanent,
I had in mind todo the fabric around the horizontal tube like in this drawing
and know a guy in Fiumicino who can do a perfect job.



but than again, if doing the effort, the grp solution would be the ideal solution,
and I'm turning in that circle now more than 3 years ... :ambivalence: