Hanked on, would you change?

[bedouin]

As has been said, the mistake is thinking that going to roller reefing means you only need one sail. You still need a selection (we have 4 sails for our gear). We don't usually change headsails underway, but we make a selection at the beginning of a trip based on the forecast conditions and fit the most appropriate.

The big advantage of the roller reefing, particularly when short handed is the easy of setting and furling the sail from the cockpit. I can't imagine sailing single handed without it. The other benefit is that even if the wind is a bit stronger than anticipated you can take a few turns in and continue to make reasonable progress.

Of course they tend to work better with smaller, flatter cut sails. My #1 genoa is rather an unsatisfactory sail whereas my heavy weather job is very good, and maintains pretty good shape even when rolled down to pocket handkerchief size.

 

[RupertW]

.....I have been overtaken by events and see RupertW has posted a slightly different view, to which I will defer as he seems to be infinitely more qualified than me

Well that's a first for this forum. If there's one thing this place has taught me is that there are a lot of very different right answers, a few very common wrong ones (catenery?), and a lot of people here think their way is the only right way.

 

[Kukri]

Well that's a first for this forum. If there's one thing this place has taught me is that there are a lot of very different right answers, a few very common wrong ones (catenery?), and a lot of people here think their way is the only right way.

One of the wisest remarks I have seen on sailing came from someone who said that the skipper of a yacht which had got into trouble, "...had three years' experience, with the last year repeated twenty times"

Anyway, thanks to both of you for good advice,

 

[lw395]

Very interesting thread. I have just acquired a boat with my first roller reefing headsail. Since she is a masthead rigged 38 footer, I am dreaming of fitting a portable inner forestay from the upper pair of spreaders (she has a two spreader rig) and runners (forty two years of gaff cutters mean that I have no fear of runners!) and having a roller Yankee and a hanked staysail, to make her easier to single hand.

Am I over thinking the issue? Would welcome comments.

If you want ease of singlehanded tacking, a roller headsail of small overlap covers it IMHO.
If you are far offshore and needing a storm jib, there is a lot less need for fast tacking! So getting the roller jib past the temporary baby stay is not an issue.
You may want the baby stay in weather offshore to stop the mast gyrating over waves? Unless the rig has fore/aft lowers as per picture?
Ideally one might own a big genoa as well, for lighter airs and/or more crew...

 

[Kukri]

If you want ease of singlehanded tacking, a roller headsail of small overlap covers it IMHO.
If you are far offshore and needing a storm jib, there is a lot less need for fast tacking! So getting the roller jib past the temporary baby stay is not an issue.
You may want the baby stay in weather offshore to stop the mast gyrating over waves? Unless the rig has fore/aft lowers as per picture?
Ideally one might own a big genoa as well, for lighter airs and/or more crew...

Yes, exactly. With the two spreader mast that my boat has, the fore and aft lowers, which go to the lower spreaders, brace the lower panel nicely, but I want runners and an inner forestay to do the same for the next panel. My idea would be to have the runners and inner forestay set up when offshore, and clipped to the shrouds in the river... Two part runners to Highfields. Measurement suggests that I can have the portable inner with a rod to a nut plate, buried in the forefoot and glassed over, and still stow my nine foot Nutshell tender on the foredeck. Yippee!

 

[PhillM]

http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/185usedtestlg.jpg

So that's the boat. As you can see she has fore and aft spreaders, so I'd hope the mast would be pretty secure. They do however, make it harder to get pact to the foredeck, which is part of the reason I'm thinking of roller reefing.

On a "usual day" forcast up to f5 busting f6, I'd tend to use the 100% jib as that's ok in light airs and manageable with a reef (or possibility 2) in the main up to about 25 knots.

Although with crew I'd usually run the number 2 jib and one reef in the main for 20+ knots. So my thinking was to get a 100% with foam luff and stick it on a roller. That should cover me in anything I'd usually go out in.

 

[dunedin]

http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/185usedtestlg.jpg

So that's the boat. As you can see she has fore and aft spreaders, so I'd hope the mast would be pretty secure. They do however, make it harder to get pact to the foredeck, which is part of the reason I'm thinking of roller reefing.

On a "usual day" forcast up to f5 busting f6, I'd tend to use the 100% jib as that's ok in light airs and manageable with a reef (or possibility 2) in the main up to about 25 knots.

Although with crew I'd usually run the number 2 jib and one reef in the main for 20+ knots. So my thinking was to get a 100% with foam luff and stick it on a roller. That should cover me in anything I'd usually go out in.

Why only 100% size? I would tend to size for F2-3 and will be fine in a stronger wind with foam luff. Also a bit of overlap generally is more efficient than none. Depends on boat but 105-120% might be more typical?

 

[dunedin]

As has been said, the mistake is thinking that going to roller reefing means you only need one sail. You still need a selection (we have 4 sails for our gear).

I dont understand that view. Why do you need 4 jibs for a furler?

Like I suspect the vast majority of cruising boats, we have just one jib - hoisted at the start of the season and left there. And we are keen "performance cruisers" who try to sail at all possible times.
Also have a cruising chute, used rarely, and a storm jib might be nice if went blue water. But never change a sail on the furler

 

[Kelpie]

As has been said, the mistake is thinking that going to roller reefing means you only need one sail. You still need a selection (we have 4 sails for our gear). We don't usually change headsails underway, but we make a selection at the beginning of a trip based on the forecast conditions and fit the most appropriate.

With respect I would say this depends on boat size and type of sailing.
Our first boat was 27ft and used primarily for coastal cruising, and our 130% roller genoa with foam luff served us extremely well; in strong conditions it reefed down well, and in lighter airs it was big enough to keep us moving unless it was so calm that we would be motoring anyway. There was a spinny as well for the offwind work. We put a lot of thought into the size and cut of that sail and it did not feel in any way like a compromise (by contrast, the genoa we inherited with the boat was a baggy old 150% that was useless if you were trying to go upwind when reefed, and we didn't miss the slight extra area it provided for downwind work).

 

[Bobc]

Were it mine, I'd go for a furling genoa, mainly because access to the foredeck isn't great (over the coachroof I'm assuming).

When it come to size, think of what sail currently makes the boat go well upwind in about 12kts apparent and go for that size. The average wind speed in this country is 10-14kts, so something that allows you to go properly in 12kts apparent (assuming 4kts of boat speed in 8kts of true wind) will be about right. You'll probably then want to turn the first reef in at about 15-18, second at about 22-25ish, and much more than that, you're not going to be too bothered about sail shape.

Do spend the extra bit on a foam luff pad though, it really helps stop the sail becoming a sack when reefed.

 

[bedouin]

I dont understand that view. Why do you need 4 jibs for a furler?

Like I suspect the vast majority of cruising boats, we have just one jib - hoisted at the start of the season and left there. And we are keen "performance cruisers" who try to sail at all possible times.
Also have a cruising chute, used rarely, and a storm jib might be nice if went blue water. But never change a sail on the furler

That was somewhat tongue in cheek - and it does of course depend on the boat and the sailing. But if you want to sail in all conditions then you probably need three. I make the point because so many people equate roller furling with a one-size-fits-all strategy. Many people chose hanked on sails for the performance but you don't have to sacrifice that by going to furling. In fact foils were first developed for racing rather than cruising and on my foil the furling drum was an optional extra.

For light airs, if you want to sail, you need a large, light genoa will a fairly full cut. That will not furl very well because the fuller cut will make it baggy when furled and more importantly is the fabric is strong enough for it to work in heavier winds partly furled then it won't set well in light winds.

For heavy weather you need a flat cut much smaller, heavier jib (which can work pretty well down to storm jib size)

In between is the sail you will use most of the time - in my boat, partly because of the geometry - I have two sails in that range but I am sure many will manage with just one.

TBH of course I don't really use the #1 much now - I have gennaker and asymmetric instead and many people wouldn't choose to set out in the conditions in which I use the heavy weather sail.

 

[Kelpie]

Whilst wafting along at two knots is pleasant, generally my sailing time is in such short supply that I cannot afford to do that and will be motoring. Meaning that absolute light airs performance is something of a theoretical thing. I suspect I am not alone.

 

[Kukri]

Please excuse an idiot question, but 1950s offshore racers often had twin forestays to enable fast headsail changes. I recall this set up on my father's boat.

Is it practical to combine a hanked lightweight gunny on one stay with a flatter heavier roller genny on the other?

The obvious problem is the risk of the bare stay getting rolled up in the furler if it is at all slack.

In the "good old days" we took both forestays to a triangular plate, point down, which was shackled to the stem head, to equalise the tension on the two stays.

 

[rotrax]

Whilst wafting along at two knots is pleasant, generally my sailing time is in such short supply that I cannot afford to do that and will be motoring. Meaning that absolute light airs performance is something of a theoretical thing. I suspect I am not alone.

In these days of reliable engines there is much truth in the above statement.

With a large, fit crew a selection of sails will obviously give better sailing performance.

In our situation, two pensioners with mobility problems, our current boat's roller reefing/furling and self tacking Jib plus the in-mast furling main-both operated with a powered winch-is the answer FOR US. Note the highlight, I am aware that system is not for all.

Just as the big, fat chunky boat with its huge pilothouse is not for all.

I do recall however the very experienced crew who assisted us with our 500NM plus delivery trip. He was not taken with our chosen vessel and made some quite disparaging remarks on the subject.

His attitude took a remarkable turn for the better at 2AM off Padstow in the pissing rain with it gusting to the bottom of a F6. He remarked how civilised it was to be in just tee shirt and shorts in such conditions................................

 

[Tranona]

Please excuse an idiot question, but 1950s offshore racers often had twin forestays to enable fast headsail changes. I recall this set up on my father's boat.

Is it practical to combine a hanked lightweight gunny on one stay with a flatter heavier roller genny on the other?

The obvious problem is the risk of the bare stay getting rolled up in the furler if it is at all slack.

In the "good old days" we took both forestays to a triangular plate, point down, which was shackled to the stem head, to equalise the tension on the two stays.

Those have rather gone out of fashion now. Not only were they difficult to get stay tension with the triangular plate, but furling gear has made that "fix" less suitable for everyday sailing. You do have more of a problem with your large genoa (compared with that of a fractional rig) in getting one sail to cover a wide range of conditions for the reasons that bedouin describes. However a well cut sail with a foam luff is a reasonable compromise. Regular headsail changes are a thing of the past for most people.

Suggest it is more common to attach your removable inner forestay just below the masthead if you intend to use it for a storm jib (which is what most do). Then there is no need for runners. If, however, you want to have a working sail on the inner (effectively a cutter rig) then you will probably need runners.

 

[Kukri]

Those have rather gone out of fashion now. Not only were they difficult to get stay tension with the triangular plate, but furling gear has made that "fix" less suitable for everyday sailing. You do have more of a problem with your large genoa (compared with that of a fractional rig) in getting one sail to cover a wide range of conditions for the reasons that bedouin describes. However a well cut sail with a foam luff is a reasonable compromise. Regular headsail changes are a thing of the past for most people.

Suggest it is more common to attach your removable inner forestay just below the masthead if you intend to use it for a storm jib (which is what most do). Then there is no need for runners. If, however, you want to have a working sail on the inner (effectively a cutter rig) then you will probably need runners.

Thanks, but I dislike having a heavy weather headsail right out on the bow, and I want to brace the mast at the upper spreaders,
so I will go for a quasi-cutter rig with the inner forestay parallel to the masthead forestay with the roller on it.

 

[Tranona]

Does not have to go to the bow. Commonly to a point aft of the windlass/mooring cleat, usually at the point where there is a good bulkhead underneath to take the mounting point. No need for runners as the stay will only be used for single heavy weather sail. Use something like a Wichard tensioner to attach it and stow it at the mast when not needed. Then you have the full foretriangle free for your large genoa.

 

[Kelpie]

We have an inner forestay as described by Tranona- masthead to near the windlass, no need for runners., stows along the cap shroud when not in use. I need to upgrade the attachment/tension system to something like a Highfield lever, as fitting it on a bouncy foredeck is not easy and I am surprised that I have not yet lost multiple clevis pins over the side.

The stay has two purposes- most of the time we use it to fly a huge lightweight genoa for reaching, but it can also fly a small storm jib (both hank on).These complement the primary foresail which is a self tacking blade jib on a furler.

We have never had to use the storm jib as the furling one works well even when reefed down (it's small to start with, and has a padded luff).

Both the hank on sails are manageable as the storm jib is obviously small anyway, and the big ghoster is such lightweight material that it is not much bulkier than a spinnaker to flake and pack away.

We tried using a big genoa on the foil (it came with the boat) but swapping between furling headsails was a right faff, and using the inner forestay and hank on sails is much, much easier.

 

[lw395]

Thanks, but I dislike having a heavy weather headsail right out on the bow, and I want to brace the mast at the upper spreaders,
so I will go for a quasi-cutter rig with the inner forestay parallel to the masthead forestay with the roller on it.

I think that makes a lot of sense, if the mounting for the babystay is already there or easy to engineer.

 

[stav]

Haven't read all the posts but in answer to the original question I sail a westerly conway, mostly single handed (taking it to places the family can ferry over and join in, or the daughters come but to young to do sail handling). I don't have a roller and simply cannot afford one so no option. But if I could I probably would as long as I could have a detachable fprstay that fits well forward and close to the top of the mast. SO I could hoist a light weight No1, a no3 blade and a storm jib.

Sailing with the current hanked on is ok, read the forcast and for me if lower wind speeds to start with smaller forsail and full main, reef main as wind increases and vice versa. Having a ketch rig also helps as I have the choice of adding the mizzen as winds lighten/come off the wind or dropping mizzen as wind rises/come on to the wind. Also have lacings on the guard wires frwd to stop the sail droping over board.

For my ten peneth worth. Happy spending and choosing.