Guardrail Knot/ lashing

[ksutton]

Under the guard wire, through the gate or via the swimming platform. All will depend on circumstances, I imagine.
My first and second priorities will always be to keep everybody safely on board.

You will be in minority on this one as well as overlooking "seamanship best practice" not to have the option of rapidly lowering the guard wire.

 

[snooks]

I thought a shackle at the Pulpit and a lashing at the stern/pushpit was best.

I think you're headsail might disagree with a shackle on the pulpit

Lashings are far more sail friendly

btw I have lashings at the pullpit and pelican hooks and the pushpit

 

[Twister_Ken]

Under the guard wire, through the gate or via the swimming platform. All will depend on circumstances, I imagine.
My first and second priorities will always be to keep everybody safely on board.

Somebody in an inflated LJ won't go under the bottom wire, and I wouldn't even without an LJ. No gate on my boat. Wouldn't fancy the transom in any sort of seaway, plus difficult to arrange a lift there. Midships is by far the best option.

PS - I'm worried about your surveyor!

 

[Ruffles]

Be a bit careful selecting cast steel fittings. If they haven't been forged they can be very weak indeed. Simpler fittings are made from extruded material and don't need forging. Good quality shackles can therefore be quite cheap. But the pelican hook in your links looks cast to me. The forged Gibb or Wichard fittings are a lot more expensive.

 

[prv]

Under the guard wire, through the gate or via the swimming platform.

I don't have gates, I don't have a swimming platform (the boarding ladder is stowed in a locker and is a bugger to climb even in good conditions), and only a skinny person in minimal clothing would fit under my guardrails.

Pete

 

[lustyd]

My first and second priorities will always be to keep everybody safely on board.

I very much hope you're not expecting guardrails to keep people on board? They are there for two reasons only, tying fenders and aesthetics. Try putting all of your weight sideways on your rails and then give them a good push if you feel confident, I'd be interested in the outcome (no, not being sarcastic). I can't imagine something with that much leverage staying in the deck under pressure.
Cheers
Dave

 

[wklein]

The pelican hooks you are talking about are called stenhouse clips and they only work when they are under constant tension like on your liferaft, when they are taking shock loads like on guardrails they are useless (especially when fenders are tied to them). What is wrong with the ones with the pins in? In practice they are more reliable. Your shock cord idea is a good one, although you will still need to adjust the rig screw up fwd to get it back on.

The bottle screw idea will be more money and will foul the headsail. Bottle screws always end up getting bent by sheets and general abuse. The cheapest way with least linkages is fork to lacing eye and lashing.

And the reason that gates are a can of worms is not the use of them but the fitting as they need support bars welding on the stantions used. These have to be at the right angle to intersect deck / toerail. Also it will increase the number of swages from 2 to 6 and require 3 adjustment points instead of 1.

 

[Twister_Ken]

And the reason that gates are a can of worms is not the use of them but the fitting as they need support bars welding on the stantions used. These have to be at the right angle to intersect deck / toerail. Also it will increase the number of swages from 2 to 6 and require 3 adjustment points instead of 1.

Agreed,but most modern caravans above about 36 feet have such high topsides that scrambling aboard and coping with the added height of a guard rail is beyond the athletic capability of an ageing boating population.

 

[prv]

I very much hope you're not expecting guardrails to keep people on board? They are there for two reasons only, tying fenders and aesthetics. Try putting all of your weight sideways on your rails and then give them a good push if you feel confident, I'd be interested in the outcome (no, not being sarcastic). I can't imagine something with that much leverage staying in the deck under pressure.

I assumed the principle was much the same as Armco barriers on the motorways. If you watch a video of one of those in use, you'll see that the car knocks the railing off the legs straight away, but the whole thing ripples like a net and catches the car. The legs are only there to place the barrier at the right height to catch the car; once it hits they've done their job.

Similarly, if you were to fall across the deck and into the lee guardrails, yes you'd probably knacker the stanchions at deck level, but the wires securely fastened at bow and stern would hopefully hold you. All the stanchions did was position the wires in your way.

In less dramatic tumbles, a guardrail just above knee height can still give you a useful support to steady a leg against, even if it wouldn't withstand a full fall.

No question that guardrails would work better if higher (but also interfere with sails and looks). My fantasy boat (sailing workboat sort of aesthetic, as opposed to yacht) would have high-calf height wooden bulwarks, topped with removable rope guardrails to waist height.

The pelican hooks you are talking about are called stenhouse clips

Senhouse slips.

Pete

 

[lustyd]

I assumed the principle was much the same as Armco barriers on the motorways. If you watch a video of one of those in use, you'll see that the car knocks the railing off the legs straight away, but the whole thing ripples like a net and catches the car. The legs are only there to place the barrier at the right height to catch the car; once it hits they've done their job.

Similarly, if you were to fall across the deck and into the lee guardrails, yes you'd probably knacker the stanchions at deck level, but the wires securely fastened at bow and stern would hopefully hold you. All the stanchions did was position the wires in your way.

In less dramatic tumbles, a guardrail just above knee height can still give you a useful support to steady a leg against, even if it wouldn't withstand a full fall.

No question that guardrails would work better if higher (but also interfere with sails and looks). My fantasy boat (sailing workboat sort of aesthetic, as opposed to yacht) would have high-calf height wooden bulwarks, topped with removable rope guardrails to waist height.



Senhouse slips.

Pete

I very much doubt it. As soon as the stanchion collapses your weight will push the rail to the deck and you'll be in the drink. The higher you place the rail the more leverage and therefore the more likely a failure will be. If you want crew to stay on the boat you need to A) teach them not to fall (one hand for the boat etc) and B) use jack stays attached to strong points on the deck.
As you say, rails can be handy to steady you in a bit of sea but falling against them will not end well for rail or sailor. I'm happy to be proven wrong but even then I won't be trusting them with my life.

 

[prv]

I very much doubt it. As soon as the stanchion collapses your weight will push the rail to the deck

I think we're considering different situations. With the deck horizontal and someone standing up, you're absolutely right. I'm thinking of the situation where the lee gunwale is at sea level and someone falls/slides downwards across the foredeck from the windward side. The wires are then in exactly the right place to catch them.

Still plenty of scope to pitch face-first over the side as you describe, of course. And I wouldn't trust the fittings at the ends of my guardrails anyway - without a pulpit or stern rail they're just attached to small U-bolts in the deck.

Pete

 

[lustyd]

I think we're considering different situations. With the deck horizontal and someone standing up, you're absolutely right. I'm thinking of the situation where the lee gunwale is at sea level and someone falls/slides downwards across the foredeck from the windward side. The wires are then in exactly the right place to catch them.

Still plenty of scope to pitch face-first over the side as you describe, of course. And I wouldn't trust the fittings at the ends of my guardrails anyway - without a pulpit or stern rail they're just attached to small U-bolts in the deck.

Pete

I think I can see what you mean and you're absolutely right for that moment I suspect. Unfortunately the boat will then almost immediately swing the other way at which point you'd go over the top/under the rail while the boat is moving back because by that stage you'd be out past the deck with only a 5mm round object to hold on to

EDIT: Ignore that - I was thinking of a boat pitching and rolling - you describe just sailing along being stable but on the side.

 

[Pete7]

Shouldn't the lashing go through the loop on the pulpit/pushpit and then around the tube rather than just through the stainless steel loop.?

Otherwise you are hoping that the two blobs of weld holding the loop onto the stainless steel pulpit tube takes all the force.

Pete

 

[Twister_Ken]

Shouldn't the lashing go through the loop on the pulpit/pushpit and then around the tube rather than just through the stainless steel loop.?

Otherwise you are hoping that the two blobs of weld holding the loop onto the stainless steel pulpit tube takes all the force.

Pete

An interesting thought, thanks, and one that's never occurred to me. I'll take a good look and maybe replace the lashings (due to be done this winter anyway) around the pipework if it looks sensible.

 

[lustyd]

Otherwise you are hoping that the two blobs of weld holding the loop onto the stainless steel pulpit tube takes all the force.

Pete

As mentioned above the guardrail isn't there to take any force at all, that's why you fit jack stays and never clip to the rail. What you suggest is going to make the rail look more secure which will potentially be misleading enough to make people think its strong enough.

 

[onesea]

An interesting thought, thanks, and one that's never occurred to me. I'll take a good look and maybe replace the lashings (due to be done this winter anyway) around the pipework if it looks sensible.

I always figured some where at this point was a sensible weak link... If not where do you stop?

Reinforce your pushpit/ pullpit bases? strengthen the deck that supports them?

If its that nasty that people are going to be using guard rails like trampolines should they not by clipped on?

What is the prime reason for Guard Rails? How many reports have there been of guard rail failing's| what where there causes? Could they of reasonably been prevented? What was the effect of them failing?

I had this conversation about harness securing points on a small boat. but that's a hole different can of worms!

 

[PetiteFleur]

Shouldn't the lashing go through the loop on the pulpit/pushpit and then around the tube rather than just through the stainless steel loop.?

Otherwise you are hoping that the two blobs of weld holding the loop onto the stainless steel pulpit tube takes all the force.

Pete

Very good point - mine need replacing as they are 5 years old so will try this method. I also make sure I use Polyester lashings to prevent any UV degradation. I have seen Polypropilene lashings on some boats which will degrade very quickly.