JumbleDuck
Well-known member
How much more does resin cure after two days, anyway?
GT 35
- Thread starter doris
- Start date
How much more does resin cure after two days, anyway?
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
What measure of quality do you use?
snooks
Active member
Materials used: CSM? woven roving? Core mat? divincell/corcell density? hull thickness, reinforcement around the rudder tube/keel, internal structure: are tray moulding used? The construction method Scrimp? VAIL? sprayed chopped glass. then onto the aesthetics whether there's print through or distortion in the hull - can you see where the bulkheads are from the outside for instance, what's the quality of the lamination like inside? etc etc etc. It all goes to build up a picture of the quality of the hull.
Tempus
Member
6 consecutive posts from the same poster (jumble duck). I thought the point of a forum was to encourage dialogue.
snooks
Active member
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
You are welcome to join in one. I prefer to do multiple posts than one quoting several people, as I think it makes threading replies easier.
Some are more enthusiastic with their GT bashing than others
And some are more dazzled by money than others. Takes all sorts to make this funny old world, doesn't it?
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
That's all very well, but I still would like to know what you mean when you say that one hull is better than another. Better at what?
Tranona
Well-known member
Depends entirely on the resin and process used. My Bavaria took exactly one working week to build from barrels of resin to ready to put on the truck. Everything worked and 14 years later, having done more miles and certainly had more skippers than a GT35 will ever do or have it is still all in one piece. Nothing has failed apart from bought out items such as the windlass, nothing has fallen off, the cleats are still there, despite the antics of novice charterers mooring in crowded Greek harbours, nothing leaks, you could eat your dinner off the bilges (the bilge pump seized through lack of use), the mouldings are still fair, the keel and rudder are still firmly attached.
I could go on, but why bother when folks who have never invested their hard earned cash in one know better. I hope (and expect) that pvb will get just as good service out of his new boat.
Seven Spades
Well-known member
No one is complaining about the price of the Rustler 37, but lots are about the GT35. the two boats are int he same league. However, I think the customers choice of interior fit-out is a PR disaster. If the interior had been in a dark oak, Cherry or Teak and the cushions had returns this boat would have been received much better. The reports of its sailing qualities are excellent and that out to count for a lot.
I like the look of XC35 and the Arconas, but it is not a fair comparison. Deep fin light cruiser racers v medium displacement cruisers. I suspect the GT35 will have a better hull shape and have a better motion.
I like the look of XC35 and the Arconas, but it is not a fair comparison. Deep fin light cruiser racers v medium displacement cruisers. I suspect the GT35 will have a better hull shape and have a better motion.
Sandy Bottom
Active member
The GT isn't custom, but you have more say and choice than your run of the mill builders.
So why did you by a Ferrari as opposed to something like a Toyota MR2 or a Caterham or a Mitsubishi EVO? Why does a Ferrari cost so much more than a Mazda MX5....
Look at the wood work on the GT35/Rustler/Contest et al, the way it fits together, the smoothness of it, the grain pattern, thickness and quality of wood itself. Then think of the time in man hours it takes to craft the boat together. Then think about expertise to craft that joinery none of it is cheap.
How long does a Bavaria sit in the mould? 1 day maybe 2, the moulding process for the Rustler takes 4-5 weeks. At Contest they allow their boats to cure in the mould for a month after vacuum infusing the hull.
So like the Ferrari most of the extra money goes into time, labour and materials, but you only get to see the last one, and in the case of the two+ tonnes of lead at the bottom of the keel you don't even get to see that.
It does not have the equivalent of a Ferrari engine - it has an off the shelf Beta 20.
It does not have the equivalent of a Ferrari mast - it has an off the shelf Seldon.
It does not have the equivalent of Ferrari winches - it has basic Lewmar (and they leave the handle in the winch for the photos).
Nothing wrong with Beta, Seldon, or Lewmar - but it is not Ferrari, and neither is the GT35. Not even remotely close.
Ferrari money, but nowhere near Ferrari standard or class. Ferrari do not build cars that look like mass market products, fit them with engines and equipment that are mass market products, and the say "Are but we build them better so pay us much much more". It's not a 'Ferrari' - end of.
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Fiskhardo Ho!
New member
MOBO at heart? The "engine" on a sailing yacht is the tricky combination of displacement, sail area, centre of gravity, form, lead and radius of gyration. Unless you own a HR one tends to use the thumper only to get in and out of open water and when the wind dies.
I think our man Snooks was simply making the point that a Ferrari is a choice, like any other.
Looking at GT it seems to me they are positioning themselves as a robust and comfortable, powerful tourer, a Jag estate if you will.
Somebody once said to me that there is no such thing as cheap or expensive, just the size of wallet. This is a complicated statement, worth thinking about, and having witnessed friends with bigger wallets than me spend money on things the value of which is totally lost on me, I see the point.
Reading between the lines we are all secretly hoping that a new British manufacturer can succeed but we all have different views on what that manufacturer should "be". If GT can pull this off and give us a decent 30 and 40 footer to boot (I see a 45 listed but that seems a long way off!), AND react to their market in terms of level of quality and volume, and I for one sincerely hope they can, then lets look for ways to help them, steer them and support them. If this were France....
The other point to make is that yes, GT is definitely a semi bespoke builder which looks like they might just be able to compete. Ask HR for a boat without teak or with pink anti foul and see how far you get.
I am very much looking forward to seeing this boat at the boat show and chatting to the company reps. I'm more and more heartened by the fact that somebody has the cahunas to give it a go. Lets see where it goes, yeh?
snooks
Active member
I'm tired of having to say the same thing over and over again.....as Seven Spades said, no one is complaining about the price if the Rustler. Similar thinking behind both boats...build the best boat you can, using the best materials carefully put together but craftsmen. Some people want value, others want quality. Think of it as a Rustler in a modern exterior if you like. If you don't understand it, that's fine, there are people that do and they are happy to pay for it. As Tranona said their Bavaria took 5 days to build, the Rustler takes 5 months, the GT35 probably the same.
Go to SIBS, go on board the GT35 then go on a Bavaria/Dufour/Elan/Hanse/Dehler and then come back here and say you can't see why they are more expensive.
I realise this might go against the unwritten forum rules, but it's worth actually taking the time to learn about and experience boats first hand before criticising them.
Go to SIBS, go on board the GT35 then go on a Bavaria/Dufour/Elan/Hanse/Dehler and then come back here and say you can't see why they are more expensive.
I realise this might go against the unwritten forum rules, but it's worth actually taking the time to learn about and experience boats first hand before criticising them.
mrming
Well-known member
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
But Were's the fun in that??
Point 1). I'm complaining about the price of the rustler... It looks like a Dutch barge with sails... And I can't afford one.
Point 2). GT have a problem... They have a premium priced product, but no brand recognition or values, and a product that fails to differentiate itself... No wow factor. If I had that sort of dosh to spend I would be looking at the Solaris which is very Simular in price, but has a lot more style...
We have a problem here... We build these very good boats, and they cost a whack, But in the end ... They have very little style. And whilst there is a market for dull but worthy, This is a far smaller market than wow and worthy.
Luxury uk companies that get this do very well... Range rover anyone?
I also agree that in fact the so called mass brands are not good value either right now... £125k for a mass market 37 footer?? That's bonkers when you look at the new market, and the market 7 years ago..
But I think the issue is not about build quality, it's about value for money, and in reality style an design has to play a part in that... The Rolex is a design icon with a good brand behind it... The GT is a derivative product with no brand values... They needed to do something that blew our socks off... This doesn't.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Nobody doubts why they are more expensive. It's just that some of us wonder whether all that extra expense is getting something actually worth having.
I wonder why the owner of the first (and only?) one is selling after such a short time.
flawed_logic
New member
I think that sums it up well, and it's a shame really, I'm sure we'd all love to see a British built boat builder succeed, but as consumers there are better choices out there.
snooks
Active member
How do you put a value on whether the drawers are held together with dovetail joints or screws? Both do the same job in the long run, one takes time and skill the other less so.
It's all about whether the extra quality is worth it for you.
sailorman
Well-known member
dovetails are all machined these days, the only skill is setting=up the machine
Fiskhardo Ho!
New member
Hmm. Great marketing, transmogrified from an originally great product (LR). However, if your requirement is for a 4WD vehicle, sadly you don't buy a Range Rover these days. If you're a paranoid oil tycoon, you might.
When you spend your hard earned it's facts and requirements that count. If my requirement is for a day sailer with enough room for the family with the odd overnight trip, possibly a few, I'd buy something cheap and cheerful, possibly second hand; I'd choose my dates appropriately because I definitely wouldn't want to be caught out. If, however, my requirement was for something more substantial that I could cruise in for an entire season all round Europe and that I could pick and choose the detail and finish, then I would understand I would have to pay more. As for blowing my socks off, I look for having my socks blown off at the extent to which my boat answers the requirement.
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I'm intrigued by the notion that "takes time and skill" equates to "has extra quality". Very William Morris, but sadly counter to a couple of hundred years worth of advances in production engineering. Would you also say that a wooden Mirror dinghy, built from a kit, must be superior to a GRP one?
