Greeline Hydrid

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Indeed http://www.steyr-motors.com/marine-diesel-engines/2-4-and-6-cylinder/integrated-flywheel-generator/

Good idea but not on a high powered motorboat. For example I'm not going to run one of the 1200hp V12 diesel engines on my boat just to provide mains power instead of a 20kVa genset but it would be a useful back up in the event of genset failure

But here the point is that once you decide to go for an enlarged alternator/inverter and larger battery pack you might as well add an electric motor + controller to the mix for relatively little extra money. Depending on the set-up of the system you can potentially gain the following advantages.

- Limited-range silent low-speed cruising and maneuvering/docking
- All reversing can be done in electric mode, eventually eliminating the need for a reversing gearbox
- Acceleration boost to get up on plane. Electric motors have tremendous torque at low revs; exactly where diesel engines are weak
- Very fine control at low speed and for maneuvering; in principle from 1rpm. Trolling valves for diesel engines become superfluous
- For single engine installations you get a limited battery-electric limp-to-nearest-port capability in case of main engine malfunction. Granted, it's a limited capability, but it is better than no capability

I don't see any of those as advantages. As we've mentioned before the ability to cruise a few miles on battery power at very slow speed is only going to save a cupfull of diesel. Modern diesel engines are not smoky and with a good underwater exhaust system, not noisy either at idling speeds so I see no major advantage to manouvering with electric drive. Yes there is a small safety bonus in case of failure of both main engines but this would be a very rare occurence

I don't think this is a valid point. Future hybrid systems would most likely be shipped from propulsion manufacturers ready to plug n' play

Agreed but we're not anywhere near that point yet. At the moment we have individual builders designing and fitting individual systems and that's bad news for reliability and future maintenance

Why? Seaway is among the big players in the industry..... claiming false sales numbers would surely come back to haunt them sooner rather than later.

Mmm, Seaway is indeed one of the big players but not as a builder but more as a designer/developer of boats. False numbers seems to be a way of life in the boat building industry. If you add up the number of claimed sales that a certain UK boat builder purports to make at every boat show, you end up with a figure several times that of their annual production. I'm not talking about Princess but, by way of example, I understand that Princess make about 300 boats per year. So a start up company like Greenline has already sold more of their 33/40 model than the total annual production of one of the biggest boat builders in the world? I very much remain to be convinced

 

[rustybarge]

Not too sure about the bilge keel thingies hanging down, they look very weak and vulnerable.

 

[Hugin]

For example I'm not going to run one of the 1200hp V12 diesel engines on my boat just to provide mains power instead of a 20kVa genset

Hmmm, I honestly believe you missed the main idea behind the concept. The idea is to recharge your oversize battery pack while you are running your engines anyway to move the boat. After 2-3 hours cruising your batteries would be completely recharged and there should then be enough power for all non-propulsive purposes for, say, 24hours. Depending on power demand and system specifics of course.

Only if you are stationary for a longer period AND don't have access to land power.... and only then.... could it become relevant to start up an engine and run it for 2-3 hours at close to idle speed recharging the batteries. It depends on one's specific boating habits, but I honestly think it would be a very rare occasion that the engines would be needed solely for recharging.

You have to hold that rare occasion up against the advantages of not paying for a genset in the first place; not paying for servicing a genset, not sacrificing precious space for installing a genset and not carrying the weight of a genset around at all times.

I don't see any of those as advantages. As we've mentioned before the ability to cruise a few miles on battery power at very slow speed is only going to save a cupfull of diesel. Modern diesel engines are not smoky and with a good underwater exhaust system, not noisy either at idling speeds so I see no major advantage to manouvering with electric drive.

Humbled by your posting record I think you are to some extent blinded by your own specific experiences and preferences here. My own boating experiences are mostly related to a 1977 Fjord 32' with two screaming 170hp petrol drinkers installed right under the aft cockpit. Communicating while underway? Yes, certainly... if you like shouting! I of course realize much have changed since 1977 (and the boat has long since been passed on to other users) but even at low speed a combustion engine can disturb, especially if you are cruising inland waterways. There is a world of difference between even a gently humming engine and complete silence when you glide through a picturesque scenery.... I guess that's one of the reasons some people prefer sails. With a hybrid mobo you can get the best of both worlds.

Electric maneuvering will - if the system is not underpowered - give you more precise control of the boat. I think that counts a lot with many less experienced boaters.... docking anxiety is a wide-spread phenomenon and the fine control of electric power can take the edge off it. I actually know someone who sold his mobo because of docking anxiety - although that was before these marvelous joysticks were invented....... it's not only fear of damaging your boat or other boats; I think it's even more a fear of fumbling around while there is an audience witnessing; or worse.... recording your fumblings.

Yes there is a small safety bonus in case of failure of both main engines but this would be a very rare occurence

LOL, not everyone have TWO main engines. I did write single engine installations I actually believe some buyers in the 4-8 tons range prefer twin installations primarily due to the redundancy issue, but maybe they could be better served (lower initial cost, lower fuel consumption, lower maintenance costs) if they had a single larger engine and the aforementioned battery-electric limp-home capability. Not all.... but some might have chosen differently

At the moment we have individual builders designing and fitting individual systems and that's bad news for reliability and future maintenance

Yes, agreed. It will indeed be interesting to see if the GL boats will have issues a few years down the river. I understand that both Volkswagen and Nanni were involved in the development of the hybrid bits and pieces.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hmmm, I honestly believe you missed the main idea behind the concept. The idea is to recharge your oversize battery pack while you are running your engines anyway to move the boat. After 2-3 hours cruising your batteries would be completely recharged and there should then be enough power for all non-propulsive purposes for, say, 24hours. Depending on power demand and system specifics of course.

You mean it's a high powered alternator. I've got 2 of those already plus 2 chargers either of which can be driven by shorepower or the genset. Why do I need the Steyr unit? One of the functions of the unit appears to be to supply mains power so I stand by my comment

Only if you are stationary for a longer period AND don't have access to land power.... and only then.... could it become relevant to start up an engine and run it for 2-3 hours at close to idle speed recharging the batteries. It depends on one's specific boating habits, but I honestly think it would be a very rare occasion that the engines would be needed solely for recharging.

Like anchoring overnight and having a bunch of kids on board leaving all the lights on. The engine would be on regularly on my boat

You have to hold that rare occasion up against the advantages of not paying for a genset in the first place; not paying for servicing a genset, not sacrificing precious space for installing a genset and not carrying the weight of a genset around at all times.

I accept that but most mobos have plenty of space for a genset and I'd rather have the extra security of having an additional source of power

but even at low speed a combustion engine can disturb, especially if you are cruising inland waterways. There is a world of difference between even a gently humming engine and complete silence when you glide through a picturesque scenery.... I guess that's one of the reasons some people prefer sails. With a hybrid mobo you can get the best of both worlds.

Again agreed. A hybrid system would be useful on inland waterways but not just for leaving a marina

Electric maneuvering will - if the system is not underpowered - give you more precise control of the boat. I think that counts a lot with many less experienced boaters.... docking anxiety is a wide-spread phenomenon and the fine control of electric power can take the edge off it. I actually know someone who sold his mobo because of docking anxiety - although that was before these marvelous joysticks were invented....... it's not only fear of damaging your boat or other boats; I think it's even more a fear of fumbling around while there is an audience witnessing; or worse.... recording your fumblings.

I honestly don't see how electric motor drive will help those with 'docking anxiety' and in any case, a few quid spent on a training course would be money much better spent. Also, joystick control is becoming much more widespread on all kinds of drive systems which are far more effective for easing the trials and tribulations of mooring than some electric motors

LOL, not everyone have TWO main engines. I did write single engine installations I actually believe some buyers in the 4-8 tons range prefer twin installations primarily due to the redundancy issue, but maybe they could be better served (lower initial cost, lower fuel consumption, lower maintenance costs) if they had a single larger engine and the aforementioned battery-electric limp-home capability. Not all.... but some might have chosen differently

Again agreed but in reality, anyone who can afford to look at an expensive hybrid system will very likely be looking at a larger boat with either twin engines or a single with a wing engine. Also a back up hybrid system won't help in the case of a prop foul so a single engined hybrid system is certainly not as secure as a twin engine system

Yes, agreed. It will indeed be interesting to see if the GL boats will have issues a few years down the river. I understand that both Volkswagen and Nanni were involved in the development of the hybrid bits and pieces

If they've sold 300 boats, those issues will be surfacing very soon if they do

 

[LittleShip]

I think many of the responses on this thread should have......

IN MY HONEST OPINION added.

What will suit one won't suit all and there are many out there that would take a hybrid system if they could stretch to one.

From a personal point of view, I have looked very hard at these boats and Dutch steel but still can't make my mind up even though I think the layout is exactly what "I" want.

All of course IMHO.

Tom

 

[MapisM]

I think many of the responses on this thread should have......
IN MY HONEST OPINION added.
What will suit one won't suit all and there are many out there that would take a hybrid system if they could stretch to one.

Wasn't it "humble"?
Anyway, even if I did use the imho acronym, I would think it's implicit whenever someone gives an opinion - as opposed to stating facts.
Fwiw, I'd rather stretch my budget for NOT having one of the pointless hybrid boats which are being offered at the moment...
...but it's pretty obvious that this is an opinion and not an absolute truth, innit?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

What will suit one won't suit all and there are many out there that would take a hybrid system if they could stretch to one.

Yes but on what logical basis? If somebody could explain a logical basis for specifying a hybrid system on a boat, I'd be interested myself. OK I'll preface this with an IMHO to please you but IMHO part of the appeal of a hybrid system is to assuage the guilt of those moboers who think they're killing the planet with their profligate fuel consumption and noxious emissions. Greenline are very cleverly playing on this guilt with their marketing but as far as I can see, anyone who buys a Greenline hybrid powered boat will be doing very little, if anything at all, to reduce their overall fuel consumption or emissions which leaves only the other advantages of hybrid systems which IMHO (!) are marginal to say the least

 

[Hugin]

I'm not talking about Princess but, by way of example, I understand that Princess make about 300 boats per year. So a start up company like Greenline has already sold more of their 33/40 model than the total annual production of one of the biggest boat builders in the world? I very much remain to be convinced

I'm surprised false - or let's call it inflated - sales claims are common. I fully understand builders want to appear successful in the market, but it could come back to hurt their credibility 10 times more if anyone was caught red handed lying about non-existing sales. I certainly wouldn't go down that path if I was in charge of marketing.

Regarding Greenline and Princess then imho it's apples and oranges. Greenline (claims to have) sold 300+ boats in ~4 years; or slightly more than 75 per year. Princess sells ~300 boats annually; though a rough estimate would be that the average Princess boat sells for 5 times more than the average Greenline boat. If this holds true then Princess' sales revenues are 20 times larger than Greenline's. Even with 300 Greenline boats sold the two builders are simply not in the same league.... which I believe was also the point you wanted to make.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Regarding Greenline and Princess then imho it's apples and oranges. Greenline (claims to have) sold 300+ boats in ~4 years; or slightly more than 75 per year. Princess sells ~300 boats annually; though a rough estimate would be that the average Princess boat sells for 5 times more than the average Greenline boat. If this holds true then Princess' sales revenues are 20 times larger than Greenline's. Even with 300 Greenline boats sold the two builders are simply not in the same league.... which I believe was also the point you wanted to make.

Actually this 300 claim has been around for a year or two which is why I'm sceptical. Also I boat in the Adriatic which is next door to Slovenia where these things are made and there are only a few about there. You would think that with a major boating area like the Adriatic being on their doorstep, there would be 50-100 of those 300 Greenlines floating around the Adriatic. Agreed this observation is fairly meaningless but it fuels my scepticism

 

[Hugin]

Wasn't it "humble"?
Anyway, even if I did use the imho acronym, I would think it's implicit whenever someone gives an opinion - as opposed to stating facts.

+1

 

[Wavey]

Not too sure about the bilge keel thingies hanging down, they look very weak and vulnerable.

There's a 33 on the hardstanding at Penton Hook Marina and I saw these when I had a wander around it last week. Less of an issue on the coast, but on the non-tidal Thames the owner will have some fun and games when it comes to mooring.

 

[westernman]

A lot of the advantages of a hybrid system, such as running engines at optimal load, no need for a reverse gear, and easy to control power/speed can be had with a controllable pitch propellor.

For the rest, a generator, some batteries and a big inverter seems to be the way to go.

 

[Chris_d]

Actually this 300 claim has been around for a year or two which is why I'm sceptical. Also I boat in the Adriatic which is next door to Slovenia where these things are made and there are only a few about there. You would think that with a major boating area like the Adriatic being on their doorstep, there would be 50-100 of those 300 Greenlines floating around the Adriatic. Agreed this observation is fairly meaningless but it fuels my scepticism

Just had a look on a few internet sites and there are 34 for sale on Boatshop24, don't know if that backs up their claim at all. Also on another site there are a surprising amount of them in the US, for
some reason the yanks love Hybrid cars instead of diesels so maybe they sell well over there.

 

[Hugin]

Just had a look on a few internet sites and there are 34 for sale on Boatshop24, don't know if that backs up their claim at all. Also on another site there are a surprising amount of them in the US, for
some reason the yanks love Hybrid cars instead of diesels so maybe they sell well over there.

Coincidentally I did the same. To be fair only ~20 of these boats are used boats; the rest seem to be new boats. Yachtworld has another 18 used boats for sale. And yes, they seem to be scattered all over... US, Australia, Mediterranean, Germany and Netherlands

 

[rustybarge]

Quote Originally Posted by rustybarge View Post
Not too sure about the bilge keel thingies hanging down, they look very weak and vulnerable

There's a 33 on the hardstanding at Penton Hook Marina and I saw these when I had a wander around it last week. Less of an issue on the coast, but on the non-tidal Thames the owner will have some fun and games when it comes to mooring.

Bilge keels seem to be all the rage at the moment.
The new Shannon class lifeboat even has them|:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WxLTKk3Deg&list=PL3D9E8F471CCF8034#t=49

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Coincidentally I did the same. To be fair only ~20 of these boats are used boats; the rest seem to be new boats. Yachtworld has another 18 used boats for sale. And yes, they seem to be scattered all over... US, Australia, Mediterranean, Germany and Netherlands

Take out a few of the duplicates and there'd be less. Just found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt_XVHPgaTA showing the typical Greenline family out boating. Not sure how they got into the US but there's a nice example of Greenline driving at about 1:20min but the helsman doesn't seem to be suffering from any symptoms of docking anxiety Not much sign of those whisper quiet electric motors either

 

[rustybarge]

really like the galley shared between the saloon and the cockpit [have edited vid]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt_XVHPgaTA#t=181

also another view at 2.35secs...

Take out a few of the duplicates and there'd be less. Just found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt_XVHPgaTA showing the typical Greenline family out boating. Not sure how they got into the US but there's a nice example of Greenline driving at about 1:20min but the helsman doesn't seem to be suffering from any symptoms of docking anxiety Not much sign of those whisper quiet electric motors either

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

really like the galley shared between the saloon and the cockpit

Its copied from Ferretti who've been doing that for a few years. I used to think that who'd want to display their dirty pots and pans to the viewing public but actually I also like this arrangement too

 

[rustybarge]

Its copied from Ferretti who've been doing that for a few years. I used to think that who'd want to display their dirty pots and pans to the viewing public but actually I also like this arrangement too

Really works in the Med, where you can prepare food and just leave it on the galley counter for people sitting in the cockpit to serve themselves.

 

[Hugin]

Why do I need the Steyr unit? One of the functions of the unit appears to be to supply mains power so I stand by my comment

Obviously you don't need it. Steyr's system is targeted towards much smaller boats than yours. I would suggest it is aimed towards the 4-8t class. Steyr's engine range tops out around 280hp, so it is only logical they target boat sizes that are likely to also use Steyr engines. A 5t boat is unlikely to carry a genset... if for no other reason than it would add 5-6% to the displacement and 8-10% to initial cost. I actually used Greenline 33 as example to calculate these percentages. Here Steyr's system can provide the same capabilities for less money invested and less weight added.... especially if going down the Lithium-battery route; they are not so insanely expensive anymore.

Like anchoring overnight and having a bunch of kids on board leaving all the lights on. The engine would be on regularly on my boat

I don't believe anchoring overnight is that common for smaller boats in the 4-8t class.... certainly not with a bunch of kids on board. Still, with Greenline 40's 21kWh battery capacity you could leave on all lights all night (they are mostly LEDs anyway now), run the floor-to-ceiling fridge/freezer unit, cook your meals on electric hotplates and still have power in the mains after 24h.

I accept that but most mobos have plenty of space for a genset and I'd rather have the extra security of having an additional source of power

Most mobos above 8t have space...maybe; but owners of smaller boats also value the convenience of permanent 120/230V AC everywhere. And I think people will value it more and more as new generations - hopefully - join the boating communities.

Again agreed but in reality, anyone who can afford to look at an expensive hybrid system will very likely be looking at a larger boat with either twin engines or a single with a wing engine.

The price premium for GL33's hybrid version was ~€30.000 in 2012 (i found an old price list from a German dealer on the net). This year the price premium has been reduced to ~€20.000 (different dealer, still Germany). And this is still as an option.... you have to tick a box on the list of extras. What if it was made a standard feature? Maybe the price premium could be lowered to €10.000 as production volumes go up and installation becomes routine for the builder. The 4kW genset option for €14.050 (not including extra batteries) would appear outright silly in comparison.