Got thrown off a boat this week.

[Landlubber]

Got thrown off a boat this week.

Decided that I wanted to improve my boat handling skills and get to know Solent Waters. So I enrolled for a week's course with one of the smaller, Solent-based, RYA-aproved Sea Schools run by a chap, to whom I shall refer as "Captain Bligh", although I may be doing him an injustice - Captain Bligh that is.

It turned out that "Captain Bligh" was more interested in critising my capabilities than he was in showing me how to do things the correct way. He gradually lost his cool and attempted manouvres were accompanied by his muttered oaths in between bouts of chain-smoking.

It reached the point where he let the boom crash into the cockpit whilst he was shaking out a reef. Fortunately nobody was hurt.

After 3 days, I asked him to step out on deck, so as not to embarass him in front of the others, and told him that was not happy with the way things were progressing. At this point he told me to get off the boat, which I promptly did. It left me stranded at 23:00 hours in a strange port.

Anybody got any suggestions?

 

[tcm]

Re: names?

Pretty poor tipping people out of the boat in that way- unless they endangering others, and it sounds as though you weren't. You should have a full refund, of course, imho.

Praps we all have stories of fabulously unsuitable skippers/sailing instructors. I know I do, including one who yabbered on almost incessantly about his own incredibly (un) interesting life from first thing in the morning till last thing at night.

 

[davel]

Agree with tcm, pretty poor behaviour on the part of the good captain. Unless your not telling us the whole story of course ;-)

Regarding suggestions - depends on what you want to achieve really.

If you still want to learn, try another school - perhaps after posting for recommendations on this site.

If you want your money back, try asking nicely, then not so nicely, then threaten small claims court, then take it to small claims court. Approach to RYA might not go amiss.

If you want revenge and retribution, try naming and shaming (here and other places); complain to RYA; equip yourself with scuba gear and a drill, swim under his boat and sink him.


Dave L.

 

[robp]

In ordering you off the boat, it sounds like he had a point of view too. If you are confident of your side of the story, it would be useful to have opinions of the other students. Do you have any contact details for them? Then I would contact the RYA and make a formal complaint. Registered instructors have to be updated by the RYA at a certain frequency. He might of course assert that you were undermining his authority and disrupting the course for others. That's why you need others' views

 

[sailbadthesinner]

If you have a genuine greivance you could ask for your money back ( sounds v unlikely)
You could speak to the RYA ( not always a popular organisation on these boards) as they approve the course. I (personally) would out of courtesy let the skipper know you intend to do this. He may also offer some redress at this point so long as you do not use it as a threat, just state you feel you have a legitimate complaint and in the event he is not willing to offer at least an apology you intend to speak to the rya.

However
you are fairly scant on details.
What were the aims or the purpose of the course?
Had you completed any theory exams or did you need any prior knowledge?
The rest of the crew?
Did they feel as agreived you. Will they support you/act as wintesses.

There are 2 sides to every story and your greivance may not be genuine it may be that sailing is not for you. Remember the skipper on this course is responsible for your safety at sea, a hefty duty of care. It may be necessary at times to dispense with pleasantries and give clear instructions. A boat does need to be disciplined and routined. A little hierarchy is infinitely preferable to the chaos that can ensue when there is none.

I (personally) would certainly not proceed unless all the crew were in agreement that the skipper is at fault.

BTW Captain Bligh is not as black as he is painted. His returning his ship's boat to port remains one the epic feats of seamanship. IMHO

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[Landlubber]

Now of course he did have a point of view, which is why I'm just going to chalk it up to experience and not take the matter any further.

I must admit that I probably did try his patience somewhat. He asked me to do a simple manoeuvre like sailing up to a buoy, which I attempted (20 Knot wind). Last time I did it was a month ago in a dingy (Force 2). The time before that was last summer. (I don't get out much - hence the pseudonym "Landlubber"). So of course I made a stupid mistake and forgot to drop the jib so the wind kept blowing me off (It didn't matter with the dingy). Still he let me do the manoeuvre wrong 3 times before I had to ask for help in frustration. But it was a school after all and if I could do the manouvres without difficulty then I would be out enjoying sailing and not doing drills.

At no time did I endanger the boat or crew and in my opinion did make positive contributions to boat safety like maintaining boat speed on engine in order to keep steerage way, whilst he tried to get 2 novices to flake the mainsail in a 22 knot wind, despite his repeated commands for me to drop speed which caused immediate loss of steerage way and large waves and wind were driving us towards moored boats.

I do not deny that he is probably a better sailor than I will ever be. But since I do not have his depth of experience and ability to "cut corners" I have to act within the range of my own capabilities in order to keep a safe situation. And that is what the whole thing was basically about. As a further example, he asked me to plan a passage from the Needles to Victoria Marina, St. Peter's Port, Guernsey. This I did by way of a point 5 miles west of Casquets. He was most upset that I did not plan to go through the Alderney Race. Now I ask you - would you go through the Alderney Race if you were light on experience and didn't have to?

 

[robp]

Difficult to know what was bugging him. Maybe he felt under pressure with a few novices and a bit of a wind. Maybe he felt that his command was challenged. Whatever, he shouldn't be upset or patience tried because you don't get it how he wants it. That should be an opportunity for him to demonstrate that he has something to offer you. In the case of boat speed, I think I would have taken the command he issued and asked for further instructions in view of drift. Of course he would have been noting what was happening as skipper/instructor?
Difficult to say. Did you feel that you got any value?

 

[tcm]

Re: skippering/instructoring & A race

Alderney "Race" has a colourful name, and always high point of solenty yotting yarns. Aargh we were dong x 9 knots!! But, infact, not that ooer at all... unless its very awful weather. And if it IS awful weather, going to St.PP via the race leaves you with a last-minute bottle-out of going to Cherbourg instead - an option not available lots further west. Soo...yes, I *would* plot course thru Race, unless of course not direct route eg from w country. Note that you may have to go there "first time" at some point...

Nonetheless, this isn't anything for instr. to get "most upset" about. It's a discussion point, with which (if he has good arguments, praps as above) you could say uhuh, i see, and if you don't he leaves it and lets it go - only a theory point anyway. Going via Casquets isn't "definitely wrong", and if you ain't happy, you can avoid it all your life.

IMHO, inshore instructoring isn't like being a normal skipper, first next to God, safety and spirit of crew paramount and etc etc. It's an opportunity for instructor to do very best as poss at cramming some info into the delegates who'll soon be crew or skippers, have spent their own money on getting info asap. He should not need to "get on" with delegates as normal crew/skipper, shouldn't "get upset" if you don't see partially-subjective points, and should be competent enough for some to make cockups and eventually get it right, unless outright safety of boat or other boats are put in danger.

For any skip to eject a crewmember is at least a partial failure on their part to ensure good crew spirit, secret axewielding maniacs excepted.

Certainly sounds very poor - muttering and cursing during a trainins course, regardless at how hopeless you are - if you were ace you wouldn't need the course! I wonder if he's a (bad) schoolteacher as a day job, another group in which many feel that they can criticize, whereas if pupils win poor results it's at least in part the fault of the teacher.

I'm taking it on trust that you didn't go up the wall with him, too much, but again, as an instructor they should be able to deal with this to some extent. A London cabbie is selected for calmness in handling rush rush arg late clients in back of cab, so should instructors be able to take on and turn around an awkward or impatient trainee. You having a quiet word with him (fairly definitely imho) isn't the cue for him to eject you from a course.

imho

 

[Chris_Stannard]

I would think that you ought to raise the matter with the RYA, if only because it will make him more customer friendly in future. It may also be the case that this has happened to others who have also failed to take it up. In any case he should not have put you ashore in an unfamiliar port, he could have asked you to take no further part in the activity until he returned you to the port you started from.

In my view you often do better with the big sailing schools, who will have a mixture of levels on a boat so that not every one is trying to do the basiscs at once. Southern Sailing or Hamble School of Yachting were good when last tried but that was a long time ago.

Chris Stannard

 

[rogerroger]

come on, name them...

Let us know who they are... slander (or libel?) is only such if what you claim is untrue.



Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[cleo]

Re: names?

It's not helpful to take sides. Even if the 'right' side. Personal chemistry is a complex subject, and he clearly wasn't very good at it. But you were a paying client, so the responsibility to provide what was contracted was his. You will almost certainly have a legitimate claim in contractual law.
So tell him, ask for your money back, and spend it on another, more civilized, course. You still want, I presume, to make some progress?

On another tack, I'm wholeheartedly in favour of naming and shaming those whose service doesn't stack up, PROVIDED we equally name and acclaim those who do render a good job. Both sides of the coin. Improves the breed.

How's about it, forumineers?

Cleo


bilbo

 

[Guest]

When stranded in a strange port ALWAYS go to the first pub on the left from the dock gates as that's always the one that has good beer and clean women!!

Oh and with regard to running foul of a Skipper - just put it down to experience and let the air out of his car tyres before leaving the marina. It's petty but it makes you feel good!!

Best regards )

Ian D

 

[incognito]

Re: skippering/instructoring & A race

Some good few years ago, I spent a week on a yachtmaster practical prep for y/m exam the following weekend. One of the candidates was an incredible gent who had most of the theory cracked, had chartered many boats for many years (he asserted) but seemed to be unable to do most practical things, and cursed and fumed whilst (not) doing them.

His MOB drill was painful, and the rest of us had to go through it time and again until he got some idea. His tacking angle was about 130*, and was performed as if on a dinghy, and his shouting at the crew when the genoa sheet wasn't cracked in quickly enough was something else.

Anyway, he didn't 'fail' his YM exam, it was postponed due to insufficient time to complete!! What happened from then on, I have no idea.

Point of this story.... said gent mentioned that he was going to open a small RYA approved training establishment with the dosh he had coming due to many years in his just-retiring-from job.

I wonder where he ended up?

 

[bedouin]

I spent an interesting few hours in January, wandering round various stands at LBS talking to sailing schools about RYA courses. It was very informative - half of them were extremely friendly and helpful, and the other half seemed to concentrate on pointing out to me how little I knew. It seems reasonable to assume that the same style will be maintained on the water.

However, in defence of "Captain Bligh", I too would get severly annoyed with a crew member who repeated disobeyed my instructions, as you admit to have done in a later posting. You are clearly not a very experienced sailor and to assume that the skipper was endangering the craft by not using the engine seems a little arrogant to me.

 

[peterb]

Re: skippering/instructoring & A race

Interesting. How long ago would that be?

On my Yachtmaster Instructor assessment course one of the examinees had a "sergeant-major" attitude; "do what I say and don't ask why". The trouble was that most of what he said was wrong. He already ran an RYA approved school; as a result of his course performance the school lost its approval. Couldn't be the same man, could it?

 

[tcm]

Re: perhaps, bedouin, but

I entirely see Bedouin's point.

But I wd say that for a training course, slightly different circumstances apply. The crew chooses the skipper rather than the other way around.

Unless an individual crewmember really does endanger the boat, and/or indicates that he plans to do so, then the skip should be able to deal with those people. One of those crew saying thatit's not appropriate for the skipper/trainer to mutter under their breath isn't such an example.

This isn't to say that the skipper isn't entirely within his rights in turfing out a crewmember. But many skippers are employed, rather than owner/skippers, and they get fired if their style of skippering means that they throw their weight around. POint is, I suppose, that turfing out a member of crew is a last resort, and should be quite a remote one in these circumstances.

imho

 

[alant]

As an freelance Instructor for several 'small' RYA Schools in the 'Solent' Area, unless you were endangering the boat & crew, its difficult to know why you were put ashore.
However, all Instructors have to make a written report/debrief on each pupil to the school (usually the pupil signs the report having been debriefed). Ask to see what was written about you & ask for a review if you do not agree.

 

[ruthhobson]

Re: skippering/instructoring & A race

Earlier this year we had a similar experience - we were on a course with people of mixed ability, I was going for comp crew and the other half day skipper. Also there was someone also after Day Skipper and 1 guy who wanted to get Coastal.

After a couple of days the other Day Skipper candidate held up their hands and admitted they did't have the knowledge/experience and suggested that they would use the rest of the week to improve - then try again later in the year. Saving the instructor an difficult conversation.

The other guy had tons of experience, and thousands of miles (inc. 2 trans-atlantic crossings) but was hopeless, at navigation, sails, knots ...well everthing. At the end of the week he was award a comp crew certificate, he wasn't happy and it was very difficult situation for the instructor - who was a true diplomat. the only scary thing is that this guy has a nice new shiny boat being delivered, I think he said it was 45ft and it would be delivered in June. Hope he took the advice he was given and did some more training!

At the end of our week we were full of admiration for the instructor - but we would have happily put this guy ashore on more than one occasion!!

Ruth

 

[Grehan]

Instructor-Skippers

We've had a number of Instructors over the years. [we like the idea of improving our skills by being 'encouraged beyond' what we already know/do]

Most have been both skillful and . . . what shall I say? . . . empathetic. Good teachers, in fact.

One, however, was obviously a vastly competent sailor (Whitbread trainer, etc.) but an absolute stinker when it came to understanding his 'charges', communicating, imparting information, and also in basic human courtesies. Constantly and very openly sarcastic, scornful and engineering situations to humiliate crew members for their incompetance. Didn't like us because we are vegetarian (=peculiar and unseamanlike) and didn't want to go off drinking until the small hours. [and we are decidedly not straight laced].

Final outcome was he invited a girlie from a partnering sail-school boat over for late night drinkies and fried egg sarnies at 01:30 hours. Bloody joke 'cos she was in her late twenties and he - maybe in his 50s? - had a wife somewhere. Stupid b*st*rd, but his lack of any consideration kept everyone awake while he crashed around and tried to impress 'la femme' with his wit, charm, intelligence and wisdom. None of which he actually had.

Following (last) day saw a complete mutiny when our collective - still cowering - efforts simply to clean the boat properly were met with withering comments. We all downed tools, cleared off and left him to it.

A combination of Adolph Hitler, Captain Mainwaring and that ball-rolling navy captain Humpty Gokart played in the "Caine Mutiny" (???). Little men in positions of supposed power over others - as both skipper and RYA certificate provider. Sad and flawed individuals, but also deeply upsetting to be on the receiving end within a yacht's limited confines, for a week. Prison.

We complained [to Sunsail] and were told they'd never had a complaint about him before. That was either total b*ll*cks, or the other poor sufferers just wanted to forget him and the money they'd paid to be abused as fast as possible.

Boats and sailing can really bring scum, and their nasty habits, to the surface. Particularly male scum, I'm forced to add.

But to repeat (as above) - we've also have some really excellent experiences - with Sunsail, with Bisham Abbey school (see letter in this month's YM), and with 'private' tutors.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Instructor-Skippers

We were cruising along yesterday, on port tack with a Sunsail school boat just to windward and ahead of us, and another boat just downwind of us (but not obscured from Sunsail. Sunsail chappie tacked onto starboard (no need to do this for water or an obstruction), forcing us to alter course around his stern and the third boat to have to tack to get out of his way.

As we cleared his stern at close range I described exactly why he was an impolite term for a rectum. I hope his puplis also knew that what they had just seen was not a good example of seamanship.