jimi
Well-known member
I got my genoa cut to 120% rather than 140% for that very reason, in light winds I 'd usually set the cruising chute anyway.
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Going to windward with a roller genoa
- Thread starter webcraft
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racingron
New member
I presume your comments about the cut of the sail mean the material? Shape wise and performance wise a cross cut Dacron sail is as good or superior to a tri-radial Dacron sail.
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MainlySteam
New member
I have twin grooves too, but I too would never contemplate dropping our genoa at sea in the wind strength when it was becoming compromised in performance for the sake of setting another smaller one.
Even with our flush deck unless it is dropped straight down a hatch (which would get water into the boat if at sea - fine in a race boat but if cruising just makes a mess of the boat) it is unmanagable on deck in those winds by myself, even in the marina, and would be pointlessly risky even with two unless of the ilk of being agile bowmen. I would also have to tie it to the lifelines which around here results in having them ripped off by the seas, as it is too heavy for one person to safely bag and drag to the cockpit.
We go straight down to small foresail on inner forestay (in staysail type position) with genoa furled.
John
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Even with our flush deck unless it is dropped straight down a hatch (which would get water into the boat if at sea - fine in a race boat but if cruising just makes a mess of the boat) it is unmanagable on deck in those winds by myself, even in the marina, and would be pointlessly risky even with two unless of the ilk of being agile bowmen. I would also have to tie it to the lifelines which around here results in having them ripped off by the seas, as it is too heavy for one person to safely bag and drag to the cockpit.
We go straight down to small foresail on inner forestay (in staysail type position) with genoa furled.
John
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tome
New member
I'm very happy with our 150% cross-cut Dacron genoa and mostly use it fully set, balancing the helm with the main. It's a powerful sail, and I don't usually bother with the main on a run. On a reach with a clean hull, I get 6 -7 knots in 10 knots true down to around 3 knots in 6 knots true.
It's only when going to windward in excess of 25 knots apparent that it starts to lose it's appeal, especially if short tacking. This is when the #3 will be used.
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It's only when going to windward in excess of 25 knots apparent that it starts to lose it's appeal, especially if short tacking. This is when the #3 will be used.
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bedouin
Well-known member
Clearly it varies a lot from boat to boat.
Bedouin dates from the era when the racing rules favoured massive foresails and a pocket handkerchief main.
On a close reach, or close hauled I reckon the cross-over point where the #2 (125%) becomes faster than the #1 (150%) is about 15-18 kts apparent. I can carry the full #1 into the low 20s apparent, but I have to start letting the traveller down and otherwise detuning the main to keep the boat on her feet.
At anything less than 12 kts my nylon sails are better than the white sails on any point of sailing - which leaves a very narrow angle of about 12-15 knots close hauled when the #1 is undoubtedly the fastest sail.
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Bedouin dates from the era when the racing rules favoured massive foresails and a pocket handkerchief main.
On a close reach, or close hauled I reckon the cross-over point where the #2 (125%) becomes faster than the #1 (150%) is about 15-18 kts apparent. I can carry the full #1 into the low 20s apparent, but I have to start letting the traveller down and otherwise detuning the main to keep the boat on her feet.
At anything less than 12 kts my nylon sails are better than the white sails on any point of sailing - which leaves a very narrow angle of about 12-15 knots close hauled when the #1 is undoubtedly the fastest sail.
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webcraft
Well-known member
Yes . . . short tacking with a big genny is a pain - tore mine (again) beating out of Loch Drumbuie in 20 knots apparent last weekend when the crew were a bit overenthusiastic about getting it round the shrouds.
I want a roller genoa where I can still short tack efficiently with one third to a half of it rolled away . . . opinions as to whether this is possible seem to vary. It would seem that a foam luff is a good idea, but is there really any advantage in a tri-radial rather than cross-cut?
Re. sheet leads when rolled away to storm jib size - two fixed eyes in the appropriate place and a spare pair of sheets would seem like a good idea?
- Nick
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I want a roller genoa where I can still short tack efficiently with one third to a half of it rolled away . . . opinions as to whether this is possible seem to vary. It would seem that a foam luff is a good idea, but is there really any advantage in a tri-radial rather than cross-cut?
Re. sheet leads when rolled away to storm jib size - two fixed eyes in the appropriate place and a spare pair of sheets would seem like a good idea?
- Nick
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jimi
Well-known member
The tri radial is a beautiful shape and sets wonderfully IMHO.
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jimi
Well-known member
The tri radial is a beautiful shape and sets wonderfully IMHO.
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tome
New member
I've posted this before - but cross cut aint bad either, you can see the foam luff in this shot. Taken on a reach in 25 knots true and quite lively seas off Portland Bill
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jimi
Well-known member
Bet the guy that took the shot had a tri radial!
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tome
New member
It was taken from an Enderlein HR49 which set off from Dartmouth at the same time as us. The arrangement was that he would take pictures of us as he came past, and we would then hold station and reciprocate whilst he did some passes under sail. After a couple of hours it became apparent that he wasn't going to overhaul us.
In the end we had to drop our main and smooch around to let him catch up at the Bill. And yes, he did have a tri-radial!
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In the end we had to drop our main and smooch around to let him catch up at the Bill. And yes, he did have a tri-radial!
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jimi
Well-known member
View from Enderlein 49
Zat sneaky chiselling Tommie, he has buggerit aff so fast I haf not had zee time for my sausage breakfast. Zee loonatic zen vent straight through ze Portland Race .. me . I am too vise to do zat .. I take zee long vay round. Tommie zen took down all his sails and waved at us to come and join him in zee white vatter, Pah nay vay, Nien zat vould be zee end of der line for the 49 ... anyway I vos haffing my breakfast at zee time. Eventaully caught up vif zee lunatic, Ja he vos quicker but ve had done ze 20 miles more!
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Zat sneaky chiselling Tommie, he has buggerit aff so fast I haf not had zee time for my sausage breakfast. Zee loonatic zen vent straight through ze Portland Race .. me . I am too vise to do zat .. I take zee long vay round. Tommie zen took down all his sails and waved at us to come and join him in zee white vatter, Pah nay vay, Nien zat vould be zee end of der line for the 49 ... anyway I vos haffing my breakfast at zee time. Eventaully caught up vif zee lunatic, Ja he vos quicker but ve had done ze 20 miles more!
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racingron
New member
What's the obsession with tri-radial over cross cut all about?
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tome
New member
Re: View from Enderlein 49
Richtig, und he vaz nicht uber-impressed mit our shortkutt rund ze Shamblebanken. Peer Gynt, it vas sheisenbloomer wesser.
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Richtig, und he vaz nicht uber-impressed mit our shortkutt rund ze Shamblebanken. Peer Gynt, it vas sheisenbloomer wesser.
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claymore
Well-known member
Oh you should - takes an incredible amount of pressure off the rudder so I'm told
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Claymore<font color=purple>
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Claymore<font color=purple>
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tomboy352
Member
Re:Yet still another alternative
Faced with the usual problems already expressed
oor performance when reefed and hairy to change the Genoa at sea with our light family crew. If I fitted the working jib prior to a long sea passage, we would get light winds and if the light forecast encouraged me to fit the Genoa ........deteriorating conditions. My solution was to fit an inner f/stay with roller gear and detachable to the chainplates. This stay/foil lies parallel to the forestay and positioned about one foot behind. If we are short tacking the Genoa, I remove the inner sail and complete shibang to the lower forward chainplate area . In frisky weather, I use the inner stay and role the Genoa. Downwind and Broad reaching, we butterfly the two headsails ( windward one with the pole, no main) and can progressively role down up to gale conditions from astern. The boat is well behaved and easey to sail handle. The rig takes out the tension from changeable forecasts with the knowledge we can safely sail handle .The downside has been the cost (2K) and not knowing if it would work until after the money was spent. The extra weight aloft, air disturbance from the roled Genoa onto the inner jib, innerstay tension causing the outer stay to sag and sheeting angles,different sizes butterfly sails downwind causing imballance......we have had none of these for our medium displacement cruiser . Possibly a lightweight , faster design would notice these problems.
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Faced with the usual problems already expressed
oor performance when reefed and hairy to change the Genoa at sea with our light family crew. If I fitted the working jib prior to a long sea passage, we would get light winds and if the light forecast encouraged me to fit the Genoa ........deteriorating conditions. My solution was to fit an inner f/stay with roller gear and detachable to the chainplates. This stay/foil lies parallel to the forestay and positioned about one foot behind. If we are short tacking the Genoa, I remove the inner sail and complete shibang to the lower forward chainplate area . In frisky weather, I use the inner stay and role the Genoa. Downwind and Broad reaching, we butterfly the two headsails ( windward one with the pole, no main) and can progressively role down up to gale conditions from astern. The boat is well behaved and easey to sail handle. The rig takes out the tension from changeable forecasts with the knowledge we can safely sail handle .The downside has been the cost (2K) and not knowing if it would work until after the money was spent. The extra weight aloft, air disturbance from the roled Genoa onto the inner jib, innerstay tension causing the outer stay to sag and sheeting angles,different sizes butterfly sails downwind causing imballance......we have had none of these for our medium displacement cruiser . Possibly a lightweight , faster design would notice these problems.<hr width=100% size=1>
sailorman
Well-known member
the sail i have is laminated, ( Dimension DC66 & 55)
the shape is adjustable over wind speeds upto around 25kts ( windward) when one would go to first reef point.
cross cut dracon would tend to have excesive draught well below these wind strenghts & loose drive
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the shape is adjustable over wind speeds upto around 25kts ( windward) when one would go to first reef point.
cross cut dracon would tend to have excesive draught well below these wind strenghts & loose drive
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bedouin
Well-known member
A tri-radial sail is more complex to make than a cross-cut one, and tends to require more material. That makes it more expensive.
Everyone knows that you get what you pay for, so more expensive = better.
Therefore a Tri-radial sail is better than a cross-cut one. QED (there's one born every minute).
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Everyone knows that you get what you pay for, so more expensive = better.
Therefore a Tri-radial sail is better than a cross-cut one. QED (there's one born every minute).
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tome
New member
Re:Yet still another alternative
Chris
I've seen your set up, and have based mine broadly on what you did. I'd be very interested to hear your detailed experiences, now that you've had a chance to use the gear.
In the end, I decided against a second furler as it's a lot of extra weight to handle, plus the expense and complexity of furling lines etc. Also, I feel that foils are vulnerable to damage when handled in a blow, especially kinking. In the end, I went for what I hope is a simple solution for me. Time will tell!
This means that I have to brave the foredeck to change down from #3 (245 sq ft) to storm jib (100 sq ft), but I'm confident that I can do this in good time. I also wanted to go back to hanked sails as they are so controllable in a blow.
Not suggesting my method is any better, but like you I gave it some thought and that's what I came up with.
Best wishes
Tom
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Chris
I've seen your set up, and have based mine broadly on what you did. I'd be very interested to hear your detailed experiences, now that you've had a chance to use the gear.
In the end, I decided against a second furler as it's a lot of extra weight to handle, plus the expense and complexity of furling lines etc. Also, I feel that foils are vulnerable to damage when handled in a blow, especially kinking. In the end, I went for what I hope is a simple solution for me. Time will tell!
This means that I have to brave the foredeck to change down from #3 (245 sq ft) to storm jib (100 sq ft), but I'm confident that I can do this in good time. I also wanted to go back to hanked sails as they are so controllable in a blow.
Not suggesting my method is any better, but like you I gave it some thought and that's what I came up with.
Best wishes
Tom
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webcraft
Well-known member
According to Sailorman tri-radial cut gives less draught when rolled down to a small size . . .
Can anyone explain this to me?
Also, most sailmakers seem to recommend cross-cut for heavy cruising use - why? Does it last longer than tri-radial?
Are there any compromise designs available?
Are all foam luffs equal, and is there a penalty of some kind involved in having one?
- Nick
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Can anyone explain this to me?
Also, most sailmakers seem to recommend cross-cut for heavy cruising use - why? Does it last longer than tri-radial?
Are there any compromise designs available?
Are all foam luffs equal, and is there a penalty of some kind involved in having one?
- Nick
<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>
