Going to windward with a roller genoa

[webcraft]

I tend to hang on to a full genoa with two reefs in the main for as long as possible (typically up to about 28 knots over the deck hard on the wind). After that I have to furl some of the genoa away, and with between one third and two thirds of it furled away decent windward progress becomes very difficult, the belly in the sail causing the rig to shake and rattle alarmingly unless I bear away onto a reach. However, if I furl more away - so the genoa is one third or less of its original size - then the sail starts to flatten out and it is possible to get closer to the wind again.

In practice this means that I can usually make reasonable progress to windward in thirty knots or more over the deck provided I furl away most of the genoa. A storm jib or smaller sized piece is surprisingly flat as most of the belly seems to be in the middle of the sail,not towards the leech.

How much difference does a foam luff make to the windward ability of a partially furled genoa? Are there any down sides to it?

I will eventually fit a separate removeable inner forestay, but for now am interested in any hints or tips that may improve windward performance in heavy weather using the existing ancient sail or (next season) a new roller furling genoa.

- Nick

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[boatless]

I have no experience with foam luffs, but you will be very pleased with the improvements made to roller sails by sailmakers over the past ten years or so. They are getting pretty good.

In the meantime, have you played with halyard tension prior to rolling it for a reef? If the halyard mechanism is stiff because of the stuff at the top of the roller, a 4:1 tackle at the tack is a dead easy method. Just make sure it's tail doesn't get fouled as you roll. Done that.

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[sailorman]

foam luff a well cut "tri-radial" sail wire or dyneema halliardl.
mine was made by Gowen Ocean of West Mresea, its a bit heavy for light weather but a fantastic sail in anything over say 10kts apparent to 22kts when a first main reef is due i roll to first reef @ around 25 kts.
a cross cut sail will be much cheaper but is limited when going to windward

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[MainlySteam]

Have exactly the same as Sailorman, just a different sailmaker, and works for us too. We have an inner forestay for a small foresail but find we never have to use it on the wind until in excess of 30 knots.

Only disadvantage with a foam luff here is that it holds moisture and is inclined to grow mold/algae on the sail if left furled on the foil through the winter (as genoas commonly are here).

John

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[tome]

I have a foam luff and reckon I can reef my 150% genoa down to a number 2 jib or just over 50% with reasonable windward performance, thereafter everything deteriorates to the point of useless. I confess to carrying excess jib to improve pointing on occasions. With the sheets run around the shrouds, as well as losing sail shape we're losing sheeting angle as the jib gets rolled.

The only things which I've found to improve the situation is to run barber haulers onto the jib sheets or else run the sheets inside the shrouds which can be dodgy if you need to bear away. The barber haulers act on the sheets like mainsheet travellers and can really put some power back into the sail. Downside is sheet tension and chafe against the shrouds.

I've just fitted a new bulkead chainplate for an inner stay and am converting both storm jib and No 3 to hank onto this. The removable stay is being fitted this week, so I will roll away the genoa above about 25 knots. Hope this helps preserve the big expensive sail also.

Interesting discussion, I've been on shorebased duties all weekend.

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[trouville]

ive always wanted a rolling genoa,now i know why im faster than an equivelent plastic boat that i thought should have beaten me, ive always wanted a plastic boat as well!!

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[tome]

I have a plastic boat and a furling genoa, but a large part of me would like to go back to hanked-on sails and perhaps even a wooden boat.

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[Sybarite]

That's before you wake up isn't it Tom?

John

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[trouville]

swop?? Im due to do my topsides and toerail varnish shortly!And when i come into a bay and anchor it takes me ages to get the sail off, Oh just to be able to pull a line and hey presto! Then the forward bearths full of sail and line, oh well

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[tome]

Well maybe!

Seriously though, I don't believe a single sail can ever answer a wardrobe, especially on the wind. I think I have a compromise worked out, with just 3 headsails (2 small, 1 large furling). The small sails can live in a forepeak locker with the light-weight spinnaker without turning her into a lad's racing boat.

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[dralex]

That's the solution that I'm thinking of- was it expensive to set up and do people know if it's easy to fit removable inner forestays to most boats?

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[tome]

I wanted the forestay clear of the furling gear so have set it up to the rear bulkhead of the chain locker, with a custom fabricated SS chainplate and deckplate. Cost of this was only £45 including backing plate. This will depend on the boat, I took advice from the designer. I've seen examples where a deck fitting has been used, but don't believe this will be strong enough and assume it hasn't been used in anger.

The storm jib was modified from luff groove to hanked on. It was impossible to unfurl and drop the big genoa in a blow short-handed so now I will just furl the big beast away. Cost of modifying the sail was another £40.

This week (fingers crossed) the rigger will be fitting an 8mm removable inner stay, which means drilling some holes in the mast to take the top fitting. This will have a tension hook on the lower end and a deck fitting to stow when not in use. I've been quoted £400 for this.

The No3 jib is in the boot of my car also awaiting conversion from luff groove to hanks. Expect that will be more expensive than the storm jib, so about £600 total cost plus a fair bit of labour.

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[jimi]

I have a tri Radial in cruiser laminate with a foam luff from Kemps. This keeps its shape very well and I would highly recommend it. A problem in very high wind strengths is getting the sheet lead far enough forward and inboard enough. Ain't tried the barber haul method yet though.

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[dralex]

Thanks- that's all very useful to know. Much as I love the ease of my furling genoa, especialy short handed, I was still tempted to change to hanked on headsails. I think your solution is a good compromise and will probably persue it.

Alex

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[brianhumber]

If you have a twin foil then you can change up or down on the roller by peel tacking. I have 3 foresails
Big 130%
Medium foam 100%
Small Solent high cut blade 80%?
with the rolling still available on all lots of options in the locker as it were.
Mind you as I am chicken when it comes high winds I tend to do the changing up or down before the foredeck work gets really hairy.

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[tome]

Peel tacking isn't for me with a 150% genoa in building winds, even though I have twin grooves. It means fully unfurling and then dropping 500 sq feet of canvas, working at the sharp end. The risk of damage to a sail which cost £1200 or to myself isn't worth the hassle.

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[bedouin]

A lot of people seem to equate roller furling with having only a single Genoa.

I have roller reefing gear but carry 3 Genoas to fit (as well as a hanked on storm jib). The #3 in particular is a very useful sail. It can be carried full up to about F8/9 and being flat cut it can be rolled down to storm jib size with very little loss of shape (although it still ends up higher up and further forwards than the perfect storm jib). However so far I have managed to avoid being out in winds strong enough to require it.

Used in that way I don't think the roller gear has any significant disadvantage over hanked on sails (okay - so you do lose one foot of luff length).

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[tome]

<A lot of people seem to equate roller furling with having only a single Genoa.>

It depends. When we're well crewed, I'm happy to change headsails and can see that a #3 would be useful on the roller. However, I do much of my sailing with SWMBO and tend to adapt to this scenario. The system I'm installing will hopefully allow me the best compromise for short-handed sailing, at the expense of some flexibility when fully crewed.

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[brianhumber]

Understand fully, when going cross the channel I get rid of the big un before we start if I am at all uncertain about the forecast ( which means nearly every time). Doing this means the middle size is containable if I bottle it again and put the blade on. With full blade and 2 reefs the Barra will fly along off the wind then when its 4 and above.

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[bedouin]

But you were expressing a hankering after hanks! I was just making the point that a roller will always give you more options.

Like yourself I don't like changing the 150% headsail underway - even when fully crew (very rare) it is a lot of sail to manage on a small side deck. My normal approach is to make a best guess on the most appropriate sail before casting off in the morning, and using the roller gear only if I've got it badly wrong.

Actually I consider the 150% Genoa to be severely compromised. In light winds it is too heavy to set well and in strong enough winds to need reefing it loses performance just by being rolled.

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