Girt big bilge pump

[Twister_Ken]

My bilge pump is set into the cockpit side about 9" above the sole. It's fine for coping with 'normal' bilge water but would struggle (as would I) if it had to manage a real inflow of water.

Thoughts therefore are turning to having an 'emergency' pump aboard. Because I don't trust the longevity of electricity in a real flooding emergency, what I'm considering is a manual pump, which would normally be stowed out of the way in a locker.

Ideally it would be a double action manual pump, mounted on a board which could stand on the cockpit or saloon floor, with trailing hoses. On the inlet side the hose would be dropped into the bilge, the flooded locker, etc. On the outlet side the hose would be hung over the cockpit coaming. The board would be big enough to stand on, to stabilise it. The handle would come up to waist level so that it could be operated for long periods without me becoming too Jacobs. The pump valves should be of such a size that they would pass smaller items of detritus like matchsticks, without jamming.

Has anyone done this? Any tips? Any pump manufacturers' names and models you'd suggest?

Thanx in advance.

 

[Mirelle]

Snap

I have a Henderson 5 below decks which doubles, via a diverter valve, as the galley sink pump, and another one in the cockpit. Both are fine for ordinary bilge water, but....

So I have just acquired a secondhand Whale 25 to do just as you suggest - it is on a board with two lengths of hose. The practical problem that I have encountered - not massively serious - is that the length of inlet hose needed when it is on the bridge deck is too long when its on the cabin sole, whilst the outlet hose is the reverse!

Rather than stand on the board, I favour locating it by sliding it into grooves.

 

[Johnjo]

ken have you given any thought to a engine driven pump?
On my Sabre I have a Jabsco pump with a clutch, driven of a belt, shifts
lots of water very fast, don't know the GPH but more than any manual pump
could shift in the same time, also useful for washing the boat down with.
Yes also have manual pumps fitted as well!!!

regards mike

 

[qsiv]

This was our standard kit at the sailing school for emptying boats - worked really well.

I'm also fitting a centrifuge pump off a PTO on the engine (Jabsco) which pumps a tonne of water every two minutes (110+ GPM). Compared with a big double acting manual pump at 30 GPM it's a big difference - and it can pump as long as the main engine runs, which is likely to be a LOT longer than I can pump manually.

 

[claymore]

I have a whale gusher manual pump that can dry Loch Melfort in 27 strokes - it has a decent sized strum box on the inlet hose.
It is a permanent fixture and complements my 2 electric pumps.
So - I'd recomment a big whale and what about mounting it onto a board that would fit into your washboard slot?
One way round it could drain the cockpit and the other it could drain the saloon?

regards
Claymore

 

[dickh]

Ken, you can also get large pumps which fit around the propshaft, I believe they are centrifugal type, they rotate all the time unless they get covered with water when they will pump as long as the engine is running. Don't know any details but apparently have a big capacity.
This is of course only possible if you have enough length of shaft exposed! - which I haven't.

dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Twister_Ken]

Dick,

Glad you don't have an exposed shaft - you can get arrested for that!

I've thought about engine driven-pumps but:
a) it requires a fair bit of engineering in the least accessible bit of the lugger, and it means putting another hole in her
b) in a flooding situation if the batteries are flooded, the engine ain't going to start - unless I get below with the handle, and if the engine is cold it can take a good long while to start by hand.

Not saying a engine-driven pump is not a good thing (undoubtedly it is) but it's not the 'pump of last resort'.

 

[iangrant]

Re: Snap

Take a pipe from the bilge to the engine T 'd into the raw water intake via a two way valve, the old stuart turner engines did it as standard.. - Older Yanmas had a permanent pipe in the bilge, run off a second impellor.
Just a couple of thoughts from things on other boats I've had that may help.


Ian

 

[steffen]

I have seen that one at a exhibition in Amsterdam. Their capacity is tremendous.
Drawbacks are strain on the drive shaft from inbalance and
the water must up to the drive shaft before it acts.

Happy sailing, Steffen

 

[claymore]

If I had the money I'd get one of those Honda petrol driven pumps - we used to use them in a sailing school for baling out Wayfarers which used to live on moorings. Used to take 2 or 3 minutes to empty them.

regards
Claymore

 

[bedouin]

I'm not sure of the viability of a manual pump as an "emergency" pump. I seem to recall a couple of years ago that suggested that an average person could pump about 10-15GPM over a few minutes almost whatever the pump. My view is that unless you have a large crew on board, limited resources are best spent trying to fix the leak or preparing to abandon ship rather than just postponing the inevitable by pumping.

This same tested suggested that the limiting factor was the power of the pumper, rather than the capacity of the pump, so just adding a bigger, double action pump would not necessarily give any improvement.

A few pounds buys you a submersible electrical pump that will pump much faster and for much longer than you could, while leaving you free to do other things. Most batteries will run such a pump for hours - and you can always start the engine to top up the power.

 

[ccscott49]

IMHO you are never going to keep up with a substantial leak, with any manual pump, you just don't have the energy. Unless you have a crew of gorillas, best to try and solve the leak first. I would consider a seperate electric pump, with a sealed battery, charged from the main battery banks, but isolated from them, the battery and pump wouldnt cost any more than a big dounble action manual pump. Whilst this pump is keeping up with the influx, you can be fixing the leak, makes sense doesn't it. I have an engine driven jabsco, which would drain the meddy if I revved the engine up! But I also have the system I have just described, the battery is stored high up, with the pump and hose wanderable, so as to use it where ness. I usually plan to poke the hose out one of the port lights. The pump is one of those monster centrifugal ones, cant remember the gpm, but it's a bunch. The system is also used as the seperate fire pump, as required by the MCA for charter boats. I hope this helps.

 

[Mirelle]

Thought there was a snag, which I had heard about. That's what it was. With the water up to the base of the annular pump casing, it would be well up the flywheel, and the shock load on the shaft would be tremendous.

I'll buy a Jabsco....

 

[pvb]

Manual and shaft-driven pumps...

Edson sell a pump almost exactly as you describe - 40gpm diaphragm pump mounted on a wooden board and with quick-connect hose fittings and a 32" handle. Pump is available in aluminium or bronze. The gpm rating will be US gallons, and I doubt whether anyone could keep up a rate of 30 imp gallons a minute (1800gph) for long (although fear is a great motivator).

The shaft-driven pumps which have been mentioned are made by Ericson but are largely impractical for most yachts. The Ericson pump is huge - the smallest Ericson pump is about 10” diameter and about 5” front to back.

Before it will pump efficiently, the aperture around the prop shaft must be fully submerged. So there needs to be quite a lot of water in the boat before the Ericson will start working properly. This would affect the boat’s stability somewhat.

Next problem: it’s most likely that a dramatic leak will occur in the front part of the boat, and the Ericson is much further back. For it to work, it will be necessary to have a virtually open bilge right through the boat. With modern boat construction, stiffening ribs, etc, this is difficult to achieve.

Biggest problem: the pump only works well when the boat is flat out in forward gear. As “Motor Boat & Yachting” pointed out in its review of the Ericson pump “it is probably the case that most collisions involving breaches of the hull would damage the vessel's forward sections. In this case, driving the boat forward would tend to fill her and negate the usefulness of the pump”.

So, if you could fit one in, and if you could open up your bilges right through the boat, and if you thought that motoring flat out with a hole in the hull (and a lot of water sloshing around in the bilges) wouldn’t be a problem, then an Ericson might shift 8000 gallons an hour. For less money, you could fit 3 big 12volt bilge pumps (say 3000 gallons an hour each) instead.

 

[graham]

Re: Manual and shaft-driven pumps...

Frightened man with large bucket is very efficient but not for long.

I like the idea of a portable pump .On my boat the Henderson mk 5 is mounted in the back of the cockpit.

My logic is that as I often sail alone it is good to be able to pump and steer the boat at the same time,

one surveyors report picked up that the boat should have a pump down below so you could pump when battened down in bad weather.A bit of overkill for a 22 footer so I didnt take his advise.

 

[philmarks]

Re: Manual and shaft-driven pumps...

Saw a big single action diaphragm pump (on a foot board) in Chandlery Barge this week (second hand).
I will go for engine driven myself. (usually short handed and would want to be shoring up/plugging etc) in serious leak scenario).

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by philmarks on 22/01/2003 21:47 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[colvic]

Speaking from some very bitter, personal and recent experience, when you have large amounts of water flooding the baot the natural reaction is to try and stop the flooding as opposed to getting the water out of the boat; don't forget the shear rush of adrenalin etc. when faced with such an emergency and though you find energy from somewhere it can't go on for ever.

On Sunday we start repairing our boat after such an incident and there are two things I'm going to change;

1) A battery fitted as high as possible that can be instantly isolated from the rest of the electrical circuits just to power that extra large bilge pump situated where it will only function at its best when lots of water aboard.

2 Air intake for diesel engine extended above deck so as to give us some extra 34ft. of water height before water enters engine and stops it.

If I could have had the engine running, which a diesel will as long as it gets air, and had a really powerful bilge pump then I could have been more "relaxed" in stempting to seal the hole. As it was, saved by some great guys from the Spanish Guardia Civil but two 70ft. launches, blokes jumping on board and passing petrol pumps etc. caused further damage.

Have a manual by all means but if serious about it, an isolating switch., a decent pump and all the bits is under a £100 and you can relax just that little to enable you to sort things out.


Phil

 

[mike_k]

I've a 23 foot (with an outboard) and a manual bilge pump in the cockpit locker - after reading this some sort of electric pump to run off the battery in an emergency looks like a good idea. I hadn't thought of it in that way !

 

[Twister_Ken]

Many thx

especially to whoever it was that mentions Edson. Check out:
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.edsonpumps.com/diaphragm_pump/catalog.html>http://www.edsonpumps.com/diaphragm_pump/catalog.html</A> - bottom of page