Getting round Spain

[ripvan1]

the database that i'm sure exists is not solely concerned with tax/liveaboard status but also with more nefarious activities - drugs, people trafficking, cash laundering, terrorism etc - movements of yachts are monitored and the gib straights are watched easily on both sides

 

[JamesFrance]

After that there are other hurdles like registering the vessel under Spanish flag and aquiring yachtsmans licence........I no as IT HAPPENED TO ME!

I think you will find that reregistration is no longer needed as from last January.

The tax residence rule is 183 days or over during a tax year from January to December, however there are other factors which could allow one to remain tax resident in Britain although in Spain for longer, such as having a permanent home in the UK or having the UK as source of income etc.

 

[Wansworth]

I think you will find that reregistration is no longer needed as from last January.

The tax residence rule is 183 days or over during a tax year from January to December, however there are other factors which could allow one to remain tax resident in Britain although in Spain for longer, such as having a permanent home in the UK or having the UK as source of income etc.

The last time I spoke to an agent about bringing a boat from the UK to Spain as I am a resident I would have to register under the Spanish flag and have project written to establish stability etc at a cost of 1000eurs,Tax would be 12% on declared value and their costs bout 600 euros, have things changed?

 

[JamesFrance]

Have a read here, where it is mentioned

http://www.nauticalegal.com/en/repo...-de-matriculacion-a-embarcaciones-extranjeras

 

[Wansworth]

Have a read here, where it is mentioned

http://www.nauticalegal.com/en/repo...-de-matriculacion-a-embarcaciones-extranjeras

Thanks,as I am akready a resident I will pay the tax......wil pass on info to some english people who seem to think it does not matter !

 

[LadyInBed]

So for the first 'section' of Spain, it is looking like the options I have are:

• To lay the boat up in Spain and leave for 6 months then return the next summer.
• Arrange to be in Portugal after the 6 months and lay up for winter there, then return to N Spain.
• or stay in Portugal and worry about the 183 day rule there

 

[jimbaerselman]

I think you will find that reregistration is no longer needed as from last January.

Correct, you don't have to re-register. However, you do have to declare the boat's/vehicle's presence in Spain, and you will be required to pay the same "costs" as applied to locally registered vehicles/boats. Additionally, you may be asked to meet local regulations about equipment to be carried and qualifications; these (at present) seem to be down to local interpretation.

The tax residence rule is 183 days or over during a tax year from January to December, however there are other factors which could allow one to remain tax resident in Britain although in Spain for longer, such as having a permanent home in the UK or having the UK as source of income etc.

Not quite. You are always tax resident in an EU country if you spend more than 182 days a year (various definitions of a year!) there. Yes, you may remain also tax resident in another country as far as income arising in the other country is concerned - rent, business activities there etc. But for double taxation relief within the EU it's the 182 days rule which applies.

For IHT, CGT the rules are different . . . tax residence elsewhere won't necessarily escape the UK taxman's clutches.

 

[JamesFrance]

Jim I was referring to this excerpt from the UK/Spain double tax treaty. Do you think this cannot be applied?

Article 4 Fiscal Domicile
(1) For the purposes of this Convention, the term "resident of a Contracting State" means, subject to the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Article, any person who, under the law of that State, is liable to taxation therein by reason of his domicile, residence, place of management or any other criterion of a similar nature; the term does not include any individual who is liable to tax in that Contracting State only if he derives income from sources therein. The terms "resident of the United Kingdom" and "resident of Spain" shall be construed accordingly.
(2) Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph (1) of this Article an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined in accordance with the following rules:
(a) He shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him. If he has a permanent home available to him in both Contracting States, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
(b) If the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he has not a permanent home available to him in either Contracting State, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State in which he has an habitual abode;
(c) If he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State of which he is a national;
(d) If he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the Contracting States shall settle the question by mutual agreement.

 

[KellysEye]

>I wonder who monitors your presence /progress and how?

The marinas are all government owned and linked by computer, thus they can easily track your movements and time spent in Spain. If you never stop in a marina only the coastguard could monitor you progress, but it seems unlikely.

 

[JamesFrance]

The marinas are all government owned and linked by computer, thus they can easily track your movements and time spent in Spain.

The marinas are operated by private companies as concessions, so I doubt that.

No doubt various government agencies can demand information from them, but I don't think they would be linked by any computer system.

 

[westernman]

Jim I was referring to this excerpt from the UK/Spain double tax treaty. Do you think this cannot be applied?

Article 4 Fiscal Domicile
(1) For the purposes of this Convention, the term "resident of a Contracting State" means, subject to the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Article, any person who, under the law of that State, is liable to taxation therein by reason of his domicile, residence, place of management or any other criterion of a similar nature; the term does not include any individual who is liable to tax in that Contracting State only if he derives income from sources therein. The terms "resident of the United Kingdom" and "resident of Spain" shall be construed accordingly.
(2) Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph (1) of this Article an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined in accordance with the following rules:
(a) He shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him. If he has a permanent home available to him in both Contracting States, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
(b) If the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he has not a permanent home available to him in either Contracting State, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State in which he has an habitual abode;
(c) If he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State of which he is a national;
(d) If he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the Contracting States shall settle the question by mutual agreement.

This more or less says that:-

1) You are resident somewhere.

2) You are resident in one place and not more.

3) If there is more than candidate place for you to be resident, then there are reasonable rules to disambiguate the situation for most cases, otherwise it will be worked out by mutual agreement (like to see that work!!!)

 

[jimbaerselman]

James,

You've pinpointed a nice distinction between treaties, and local legislation. One difficulty is that local legislation can be different between two countries. You'll note the treaty carefully says "under the law of that state". That ducks the issue that tax residence may be defined with subtle differences in different states, usually through conflicts between residence definitions and business connections.

British statutory law currently states the "183 days or more" rule, but a lot of case law qualifies that rule. As to what happens to ambiguities at the moment, Michael made the point nicely - " . . . mutual agreement".

For a very clear (rather long) discussion of tax residence and proposed rule changes, see this white paper and download the "consultation document". One example it uses is a cruise liner skipper who spends a large amount of time overseas . . . but has a family and a home in Britain. Good stuff if you're a patient reader.

 

[GrahamM376]

or stay in Portugal and worry about the 183 day rule there

Don't worry about Portugal, just 2 taxes to pay if they decide to check you out. Light dues 2 euro per 6 months from the day of arrival and boat tax based on engine size after 183 days consec in calendar year. We've been there 6 years and not payed anything so far, moored adjacent to Policia Maritima who leave us alone - they often spend night shift fishing off their boat on the mooring!

 

[chinita]

The marinas are all government owned and linked by computer, thus they can easily track your movements and time spent in Spain.

Don't think so.

I owned three 12m berths in a Tomas Maestre Marina. A privately owned Marina.

They couldn't even ink arms if they tried.

 

[LadyInBed]

Don't worry about Portugal, just 2 taxes to pay if they decide to check you out.

Thank God for that! I was beginning to think that it was going to be more stress sailing Spain than staying home and working.

People raise all these tales of doom and gloom re France and documentation or lately Belgium and Red Diesel which, having sailed the area for best part of 30 years, has never worried me.
Now planning to head leisurely south, from the above posts it would appear that for stress free sailing I should not spend more than 182 days in the upper, middle or Med sections of Spain and winter in Portugal and Gib where the consequences of being there longer than 6 months are not so expensive.

 

[chinita]

The taxes in Portugal only get painful if you own a newish, big, large engined mobo.

I have a seventies sailing yacht with an 18hp engine.

I pay no taxes.

Check out lagosnavigators.net

All details are there, I think under FAQs.

 

[GrahamM376]

Thank God for that! I was beginning to think that it was going to be more stress sailing Spain than staying home and working.

People raise all these tales of doom and gloom re France and documentation or lately Belgium and Red Diesel which, having sailed the area for best part of 30 years, has never worried me.

We've never been troubled much by "officialdom" in France, Spain or Portugal. Some boats have had warnings about safety equipment from the Portuguese but (so far) no fines that I know of. Only been boarded twice at sea, once off Kilmore Quay years ago and once (this year) entering Mazagon.

 

[jordanbasset]

When we did this trip were also worried about the issue of being taxed for spending too long in Spain. Although our details were taken at marinas from Northern Spain to the Balearics there was never any interest in us from the tax authorities.
Speaking to people who were also taking a leisurely cruise around Spain they also had no problems. The only ones I heard about who were questioned were those that have lived full time in Spain and had a 12 month contract in marinas. This was from 2010-May 2011, even then did not meet any who actually paid the tax.

 

[duncan99210]

This one seems to kick off every year about now. The Spanish law is clear; if you are in Spanish waters for 183 days or more in a calendar year and you are in charge of a boat, then (in theory) you owe the tax people the 12% matriculation tax. The boat can stay as long as you care to leave it, the tax liability refers to the individual. There was a long thread on this topic last year at about this time which came to the same conclusion.

There are a few folk each year who get pulled over by the Guardia Finanzia and wind up paying the tax. However, it is not as bad as it seems, as the age of the boat gives rise to significant discounts on the assessed value for the tax or you can 'import' the boat as part of your household when declaring yourself resident in Spain and pay no tax on it.

If you search back on the site, you'll find all the threads from last year.

 

[GrahamM376]

the age of the boat gives rise to significant discounts on the assessed value for the tax .

Met a Dutch couple in Chipiona who had been caught after 7 years in the same place. They were asked to provide an estimated value for the boat which was fairly old and the tax wasn't too painfull. No check was made to verify their valuation.