"Get the furling line off that winch!"...

[Simondjuk]

Different ships different splices? I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand and I guess it all depends in a few more factors. Ours is a masthead rig so the genoa is quite large. We might have most if the sail ou when sailing downwind in moderate condition (and far more out than if hard on the wind) and you would find it hard to pull the reefing line in by hand even with grip like a gorilla.

We're fractional rigged, so only have about 350 square feet of genoa, which by easing sheets without allowing the sail to flog, I'm able to furl by hand on all points of sail from any degree of unfurledness versus wind strength which is sensible. Never had the need to winch, so never done it. Simple as that. I also generally prefer to furl rather more quickly than even a very high geared winch would allow. It's a lot of line to move.

Out of interest, what's your objection to doubling a line in the hand? I can't imagine any possible risk to person or gear in doing so.

 

[Uricanejack]

We're fractional rigged, so only have about 350 square feet of genoa, which by easing sheets without allowing the sail to flog, I'm able to furl by hand on all points of sail from any degree of unfurledness versus wind strength which is sensible. Never had the need to winch, so never done it. Simple as that. I also generally prefer to furl rather more quickly than even a very high geared winch would allow. It's a lot of line to move.

Out of interest, what's your objection to doubling a line in the hand? I can't imagine any possible risk to person or gear in doing so.

I interoperate the doubling the line in your hand to be a description of tacking a turn around your hand with the line to improve your grip.
This can be risky if you are pulling a jerking load the danger being your hand could be pulled into the cleat block or winch causing injury you being unable to let go due to the turn around your hand..
Kind of like don’t put your foot in the bight of a rope.

 

[jerrytug]

I interoperate the doubling the line in your hand to be a description of tacking a turn around your hand with the line to improve your grip.
This can be risky if you are pulling a jerking load the danger being your hand could be pulled into the cleat block or winch causing injury you being unable to let go due to the turn around your hand..
Kind of like don’t put your foot in the bight of a rope.

Exactly mate and it's little fingers towards the load,not thumb and forefinger. Another reason to use the winch!

 

[Resolution]

We're fractional rigged, so only have about 350 square feet of genoa, which by easing sheets without allowing the sail to flog, I'm able to furl by hand on all points of sail from any degree of unfurledness versus wind strength which is sensible. Never had the need to winch, so never done it. Simple as that. I also generally prefer to furl rather more quickly than even a very high geared winch would allow. It's a lot of line to move.

.

Simon
Your numbers highlight the reason why some of us need to use a winch. My genoa is more like 650 sq ft and in any wind I cannot start the furler by hand even with the sail mostly unloaded. And I have an excellent harken system with little friction. It would be quite instructive to have real numbers for the sheet tensions involved in sails of different sizes. How many of the people who "never" use a winch have sails over 500 sq ft?

 

[Simondjuk]

I interoperate the doubling the line in your hand to be a description of tacking a turn around your hand with the line to improve your grip.
This can be risky if you are pulling a jerking load the danger being your hand could be pulled into the cleat block or winch causing injury you being unable to let go due to the turn around your hand..
Kind of like don’t put your foot in the bight of a rope.

I'd have described taking a turn as taking a turn, which is why I didn't.

 

[Simondjuk]

Simon
Your numbers highlight the reason why some of us need to use a winch. My genoa is more like 650 sq ft and in any wind I cannot start the furler by hand even with the sail mostly unloaded. And I have an excellent harken system with little friction. It would be quite instructive to have real numbers for the sheet tensions involved in sails of different sizes. How many of the people who "never" use a winch have sails over 500 sq ft?

That's a pretty big genoa. The thread began with mention of, I think, a 39 foot boat, so that's the kind of sail and likely loading I was failing to see the need to winch, not that I'm saying it's wrong to do so or to simply snub on a winch. Merely that I've not found a need. Pulling more than moderately hard by hand on our 40 footer feels unkind to the gear to me. I simply don't need or want to give it any more welly than that. If I do need to, something is probably amiss.

 

[Simondjuk]

Exactly mate and it's little fingers towards the load,not thumb and forefinger. Another reason to use the winch!

Quite so, but what he said is completely different to what I said.

 

[Uricanejack]

I apologise for misunderstanding your comment and posting an irrelevant hazard.

I am not familiar with the term.
perhaps you could explain what. You meant by “double the furling line in my hands”.

Part of my confusion may be my reply was to the poster who wanted to know why anther poster commented “I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand”.
With out realising it was you the same original poster of the comment.

From which I clearly jumped to an erroneous conclusion about the meaning of the term. I did not mean to insinuate your technique was un seaman like.

 

[Simondjuk]

I apologise for misunderstanding your comment and posting an irrelevant hazard.

I am not familiar with the term.
perhaps you could explain what. You meant by “double the furling line in my hands”.

Part of my confusion may be my reply was to the poster who wanted to know why anther poster commented “I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand”.
With out realising it was you the same original poster of the comment.

From which I clearly jumped to an erroneous conclusion about the meaning of the term. I did not mean to insinuate your technique was un seaman like.

No apology required, I didn't mean my response to sound so curt. One of the dangers of replying using a phone leading to economy of words and lack of smilies.

By doubling the line, I simply meant taking a small bight, not much longer than the span of one's hand, with both parts exiting by the little finger. On a smallish diameter line such as on a furler, it gives a little more body on which to grip, resulting in the ability to pull a little more firmly. Should grip be lost, the bight simply slips from the hand.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I apologise for misunderstanding your comment and posting an irrelevant hazard.

I am not familiar with the term.
perhaps you could explain what. You meant by “double the furling line in my hands”.

Part of my confusion may be my reply was to the poster who wanted to know why anther poster commented “I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand”.
With out realising it was you the same original poster of the comment.

From which I clearly jumped to an erroneous conclusion about the meaning of the term. I did not mean to insinuate your technique was un seaman like.

I ought to comment as it was myself who said I actively discourage doubling a line in the hand...

I thought that the poster meant 'take a turn round your hand' and that is what I always discourage. Its a bad habit as its potentially dangerous in some circumstances. If he didn't mean taking a turn round your hand by his expression, then I have no idea what he meant.... although I have seen techniques where you take a bight in your hand (little fingers towards the load) when you are about to let fly a sheet off a highly loaded winch.

I suspect that some of the comments are reactions to the word 'NEVER' used by some forumites. I might start another thread on the subject....

 

[SimonFa]

This has all been quite interesting and even educational for the newbie boat owner, however it doesn't address the issue raised in OP.

What you do with your own boat is your own lookout; the implied question raised is what do you allow your crew to do, especially if you don't really know them and their seamanship skills?

Would you allow a potential gorilla with unknown "mechanical sympathy" loose with furling line, winch and winch handle? I'm not sure I would.

 

[john_morris_uk]

This has all been quite interesting and even educational for the newbie boat owner, however it doesn't address the issue raised in OP.

What you do with your own boat is your own lookout; the implied question raised is what do you allow your crew to do, especially if you don't really know them and their seamanship skills?

Would you allow a potential gorilla with unknown "mechanical sympathy" loose with furling line, winch and winch handle? I'm not sure I would.

That seems to be a much bigger question. Its all about crew management and expectations and how you ensure that people don't do silly things without being patronising to them...

Sadly some people who own boats aren't always very good at being boat skippers. Or perhaps I should rephrase that and suggest that some people who skipper boats are still learning their skippering skills? I don't claim any special powers in these things, but there are some own goals you can easily avoid when skippering a boat. One is to be so wrapped up in doing something yourself (like steering the boat?) that you can't keep a weather eye out on what your crew are doing and ensure that they AREN'T putting gorilla power into winching something when they ought to be able to wind it in easily.

If I knew that the furling system worked easily and by hand, (as it normally does on our boat) then I would be saying something like, "You shouldn't have to put that on the winch - is something stuck somewhere?" whilst having a look round the boat to see where the snag was. Newcomers often don't spot that the line has tied itself in a knot at a turning block, or snagged on a foredeck cleat etc and try to think for themselves and use a winch when its unnecessary. If its blowing old boots and we are about to turn onto a reach, I might be saying, "I think you'll need to put the furling line on the winch to get a few rolls in on the genoa..." but still watch to make sure they are not breaking something or putting their fingers in danger.

PS As a general comment, my hackles still rise slightly when people write things on this forum that apply to their boat and try to make them apply universally.... so all the above IMHO.

 

[Lakesailor]

I suspect that some of the comments are reactions to the word 'NEVER' used by some forumites. I might start another thread on the subject....

Never start another thread.

 

[Wandering Star]

Would you allow a potential gorilla.

That's an excellent description of the OP though the word "potential" is probably superfluous in the context of describing MoodyNick.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Pye_End]

This has all been quite interesting and even educational for the newbie boat owner, however it doesn't address the issue raised in OP.

What you do with your own boat is your own lookout; the implied question raised is what do you allow your crew to do, especially if you don't really know them and their seamanship skills?

Would you allow a potential gorilla with unknown "mechanical sympathy" loose with furling line, winch and winch handle? I'm not sure I would.

The message I get is - obey and respect the skipper with small issues such as this. He/she is in charge. What we all do or allow on our own boat is another matter, and works for some but not others. I don't allow furling line on a winch for the reason given in several posts, but on a 26 foot boat this is a different issues, and have never had a problem hand furling (unless something fouled). I would be perfectly content to sail under skippers rules on a boat that chances are they knew better -why make life more stressful than it is already?

 

[Lakesailor]

It's his boat.
However it makes you wonder if you are comfortable sailing there.

Some skippers can get their way without issuing diktats. It's always possible a skipper may learn something from other's experience.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

This has all been quite interesting and even educational for the newbie boat owner, however it doesn't address the issue raised in OP.

What you do with your own boat is your own lookout; the implied question raised is what do you allow your crew to do, especially if you don't really know them and their seamanship skills?

Would you allow a potential gorilla with unknown "mechanical sympathy" loose with furling line, winch and winch handle? I'm not sure I would.

You're quite right - "what you do with your own boat" includes what you ask/allow your crew to do. You retain responsibility for what happens, even if the crew are 'experienced', or claim they are. But there's no doubt that it can be a source of friction if people have differing opinions on the 'right' way of doing things; the more so if crew are very sensitive to being checked, questioned or overruled.

You also, as skipper, sometimes have to be a bit abrupt in the heat of the moment - there sometimes isn't time for diplomacy! But you can always discuss it calmly afterwards, and that usually (not always) helps - discussing the different ways of doing things is hugely beneficial, and as skipper I've learned a lot from crew.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

You're quite right - "what you do with your own boat" includes what you ask/allow your crew to do. You retain responsibility for what happens, even if the crew are 'experienced', or claim they are. But there's no doubt that it can be a source of friction if people have differing opinions on the 'right' way of doing things; the more so if crew are very sensitive to being checked, questioned or overruled.

You also, as skipper, sometimes have to be a bit abrupt in the heat of the moment - there sometimes isn't time for diplomacy! But you can always discuss it calmly afterwards, and that usually (not always) helps - discussing the different ways of doing things is hugely beneficial, and as skipper I've learned a lot from crew.

For clarity, my original post was intended to be about the use of the winch, not the specific wording of the command. As an instructor and skipper, I talk to people in different ways according to the task and the situation, and expect the same to apply when I am a crew.

 

[oldbilbo]

I sailed for a while with a relative newbie who had 'everything in its place and a place for everything' as a matter of dogma. Commendable! Now, I have the habit of coiling up lines in the cockpit, as most do, into loose coils. These get draped over winches, cleats, tucked into glovebox lockers, so they're less of a trip hazard.

My 'mate' insisted on these being coiled 'Figure of Eight' fashion, for that's the way he'd been taught. I had no issue with that, and complied... when I remembered.

The difficulty was that he insisted on each coil being a specific length. His arms were much longer than mine, as were his coils. As I recall, he also insisted on his tea being stirred in a figure-of-eight.... I wonder sometimes how he's getting on....

 

[Lakesailor]

Cruising must be a nightmare if he sails in a figure of eight.