"Get the furling line off that winch!"...

[Martin999]

I always have to use the winch - sometimes with the handle - I have a self tacking jib and the friction in the sheet is iften too much

 

[john_morris_uk]

You also, as skipper, sometimes have to be a bit abrupt in the heat of the moment - there sometimes isn't time for diplomacy! But you can always discuss it calmly afterwards, and that usually (not always) helps - discussing the different ways of doing things is hugely beneficial, and as skipper I've learned a lot from crew.

My feeling is that if you have to be abrupt then the only excuse is that they are about to do something dangerous. Even then I would be questioning myself about how I allowed the situation to develop without seeing what was happening or briefing the crew first. For example: most people who have sailed before don't idly play with loaded clutches or the topping lift with the possibility of the boom landing on someone's head.

I did have a novice crew recently who managed to nearly gybe the boat all standing from a beam reach. I had to tell him to put the wheel the 'other way' fairly urgently...

 

[onesea]

You also, as skipper, sometimes have to be a bit abrupt in the heat of the moment - there sometimes isn't time for diplomacy! But you can always discuss it calmly afterwards, and that usually (not always) helps - discussing the different ways of doing things is hugely beneficial, and as skipper I've learned a lot from crew.

This is where you have to be exceptionally careful if its SWMBO, it seems I have developed a nice tine that says do it now... It really winds SWMBO up, then when my 4 year old daughter steering decided to sail closer to the duckys and nearly put us aground she used the same tone.

There was a knowing smile between the two of us, she has never complained since, although I am now normally on the receiving end and her tone isn't so nice...

I think all of us learn from experience, just sometimes those experiences do not teach us the right lessons...
As for furling lines on winches, its the skippers choice but you can always choose not to sail with them again...

 

[Simondjuk]

I ought to comment as it was myself who said I actively discourage doubling a line in the hand...

I thought that the poster meant 'take a turn round your hand' and that is what I always discourage. Its a bad habit as its potentially dangerous in some circumstances. If he didn't mean taking a turn round your hand by his expression, then I have no idea what he meant.... although I have seen techniques where you take a bight in your hand (little fingers towards the load) when you are about to let fly a sheet off a highly loaded winch.

I suspect that some of the comments are reactions to the word 'NEVER' used by some forumites. I might start another thread on the subject....

I quite agree with all you say about wrapping. What I meant was this (though not usually on a 20 odd mm line)...

 

[BlueSkyNick]

mmm, nice looking winch !

 

[lustyd]

What an amusing thread

It seems that quite a lot of sailors have taken the very sensible advice to not winch a furling system which has a problem and really run with it.
Many of the posts seem to suggest that winching a genoa from the furler end will somehow destroy the furler, rip it from the deck or some other fate worse than being boatless. The reality though, is that the furling end gets a similar force when you winch the sheets in tight, and the furler stays in the deck when you do that. My own boat doesn't need a winch but using a handle or not I would have no problem (on a bigger boat) with anyone using one as long as they were smart enough to investigate any increase in tension. The helm should also be watching for problems with the sail, furler, or furlee and should mention these.

It would seem that the chinese whispers method of training has resulted in this belief so it's nice to see the forum here to dispel these myths

 

[Simondjuk]

mmm, nice looking winch !

Harken 80 3 speed. Not used on my boat, unless I wanted to lift it without a crane!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Maybe your reply to the skipper should have been " bear away to blanket the sail behind the main, to make it easier to furl" . Its a bit like tacking where an inconsiderate helmsman simply ramns the boat through the wind making it much harder to sheet in, whilst a good helm tacks more slowly, losing less boat speed, and giving the trimmers time to get the sails in without winches.

 

[Pye_End]

What an amusing thread

It seems that quite a lot of sailors have taken the very sensible advice to not winch a furling system which has a problem and really run with it.
Many of the posts seem to suggest that winching a genoa from the furler end will somehow destroy the furler, rip it from the deck or some other fate worse than being boatless. The reality though, is that the furling end gets a similar force when you winch the sheets in tight, and the furler stays in the deck when you do that. My own boat doesn't need a winch but using a handle or not I would have no problem (on a bigger boat) with anyone using one as long as they were smart enough to investigate any increase in tension. The helm should also be watching for problems with the sail, furler, or furlee and should mention these.

It would seem that the chinese whispers method of training has resulted in this belief so it's nice to see the forum here to dispel these myths

When I first got my boat I had a number of issues with the furler, including a bend drum, and a spinnaker halyard that liked to wrap itself round the top as it was being furled. Whenever there was a unnoticed foul there were breaking stitching sounds from the base of the sail, and a very odd shaped forestay. Fortunately somebody noticed before the foil or the forestay were damaged or the sail completely ripped. Particularly inexperienced crew are found a good source for damage for situations like this. Unfortunately with a jam up the forces tend to be focused on a small area, so there is a lack of similarity with simply winding in a genoa sheet.

Often the helm is electronic and is always disappointing when it comes to pointing out problems.

So in my case, not chinese whispers, just years of learning lessons of things that go wrong.

 

[Mudisox]

I think all of us learn from experience, just sometimes those experiences do not teach us the right lessons...
As for furling lines on winches, its the skippers choice but you can always choose not to sail with them again...

Like most situations, when with others, you often learn something, ,,,,,,,,,,,,, even if it is " I wouldn't do it that way"

 

[lustyd]

When I first got my boat I had a number of issues with the furler, including a bend drum, and a spinnaker halyard that liked to wrap itself round the top as it was being furled. Whenever there was a unnoticed foul there were breaking stitching sounds from the base of the sail, and a very odd shaped forestay. Fortunately somebody noticed before the foil or the forestay were damaged or the sail completely ripped. Particularly inexperienced crew are found a good source for damage for situations like this. Unfortunately with a jam up the forces tend to be focused on a small area, so there is a lack of similarity with simply winding in a genoa sheet.

Often the helm is electronic and is always disappointing when it comes to pointing out problems.

So in my case, not chinese whispers, just years of learning lessons of things that go wrong.

I did say it was sensible not to winch a furler with a problem. It is not a problem, as others have said, to winch a working furler, and it would probably do no damage to sheet in a sail from the furler end (although why you'd want to I don't know!) as long as it's working.

The real lesson here is that if you have halyards that interfere or wrap when you furl then fix the boat rather than change your methods. The chinese whispers I spoke of begin with someone like yourself who has had problems unrelated to the actual winching of the furler. You tell someone that you caused damage by winching and they take it to mean it's a bad idea to ever winch a furler. They then tell someone else who believes that it's some kind of sailing law that you must not ever put a furling line on a winch which leads to threads like this. In reality the furler is under no more strain when furling than when sheeting, just that the rope you're pulling is at the other end of the sail. More sailors would do well to think these things through than blindly believing "rules".

 

[Pye_End]

The real lesson here is that if you have halyards that interfere or wrap when you furl then fix the boat rather than change your methods. The chinese whispers I spoke of begin with someone like yourself who has had problems unrelated to the actual winching of the furler. You tell someone that you caused damage by winching and they take it to mean it's a bad idea to ever winch a furler. They then tell someone else who believes that it's some kind of sailing law that you must not ever put a furling line on a winch which leads to threads like this. In reality the furler is under no more strain when furling than when sheeting, just that the rope you're pulling is at the other end of the sail. More sailors would do well to think these things through than blindly believing "rules".

After a couple of seasons of trying to eliminate the halyard problem I took it off. Have I ever had a furling problem since? - yes. It is rare, but has happened, maybe a couple of times in 15 years or so. Cannot remember why - perhaps a riding turn on the drum, or fouled another line. I do not think it possible to completely eliminate all problems with equipment, but I do know that if I hand furl I find find the problem before it damages something else. Works for me, but all skippers need to come to their own conclusion.

My message is that skippers who do not allow lines on furlers may not necessarily be pillocks or inexperienced - they have just come to a different conclusion than others on how to run their boat, and for well thought out reasons. I accept that the OP poster was not intending to use a handle - in certain circumstances I could understand this decision as well although it is much more of a grey area. He may have had his reasons.

 

[charles_reed]

... came the cry from the skipper of a boat I was on recently, as I tried to furl a flogging headsail on a 40 footer in a F4/5.

I did as I was told at the time, and eventually got it in by hand over handing on the line, then asked what the issue was.... too much lateral strain on the furling mechanism came the reply.

I explained I was not using or intending to use the winch handle, so with just a couple of turns on the winch and pulling by hand I was simply using it as a method of making it easier to furl, but using the friction on the drum to prevent the sail pulling back. No additional gearing hence no additional tension. Had I put the line in the self tailer and started cranking the handle, it would have been a different issue.

The skipper maintained that the furling line should never go on the winch - much better to bear away to blanket the sail behind the main, to make it easier to furl.

Comments invited.

Well I fitted a dedicated snubbing winch to do just that job.
Still you don't have to sail with him again.