Game Changing 42 ft Flybridge Concept? Opinions appreciated!

[Hugin]

As announced earlier this week I am now returning with a more broad description of the 42' Flybridge Concept.
I am currently developing the concept in cooperation with a boat designer formerly working for Seaway. The project is currently in a maturing stage. We have already made significant layout changes as some initial ideas turned out difficult to realize or just less optimal than first thought. The concept is firming up and I am now in the process of optimizing specific details and double-checking numbers and measurements, while my partner has the ungrateful and frustrating job of trying to illustrate and document everything as it evolves.

We don't have finalized layouts or designs ready for publication yet..... and we would be wary of publishing them uncensored at this stage anyway; so what you get is written descriptions with a few crucial specific details missing where we are concerned it could give away our trade secrets

The general specifications and design restraints are as follows:

Length; hull + platform: 13.12 m. (exactly 43 feet)
Length; at waterline: 10.50 m.
Maximum beam: 4.00 m.
Maximum draft: 1.20 m.
Light Displacement: ~10800 kg
Full Load Displacement: ~13800 kg

Maximum hull measurements according to ISO-8666: 11.99 X 3.99 m.

So far nothing unusual; the unusual stuff all follow below. But first a kind of disclaimer; this concept is probably not really targeted towards most of the commentators here. If you are already enjoying life in a 50-80 ft. mobo then it is quite unlikely a much smaller boat will be a revelation or game changer for you personally. But for people moving up and getting ready for a boat of this size I genuinely believe they will find something unique, surprising and appealing.
One more thing..... I fully understand it can be very hard to imagine this boat from my written descriptions. In fact, I would be truly worried if everyone could imagine it just like that; then I would not have been imaginative and/or innovative enough. Imagination and innovation is a process; it usually doesn't happen as a sudden inspiration and then all is just clear. Over the last 2-3 years I have spent 100s of hours on a just-for-fun basis making layout sketches and drawings of mobos.... as well as researching what the market already has to offer. All this has lead up to the current concept.

Below are the 5 main components of the concept. They could all also be considered USPs (Unique Selling Propositions), insofar each of them separately could conceivably be considered a strong enough argument that a potential buyer is persuaded to buy the boat.

Primary Design Drivers (Unique Selling Propositions):

1) Propulsion: Single Diesel Engine, ~600 hp with V-drive shaft/propeller. The shaft configuration includes an Aquadrive system and a center line prop tunnel, which all combine to allow a very modest shaft/propeller down-angle for optimal propulsive efficiency. The single engine configuration allows for a reduction of engine room size and a weight reduction of the propulsion system as a whole. It also has a beneficial influence on purchase price as well as overall Cost of Ownership.

2) The accommodation requirement is for up to 8 people overnight; all enjoying the comfort and privacy of cabins with full standing height in part of the cabin as well as full size beds. Overnighters will share two heads/bathrooms. It will be possible to accommodate a further 2 people by converting the main dinette into a double bed; allowing a total of 10 people to sleep aboard.

3) The intention is to provide a salon with at least 50% more interior area than the average of comparably sized and priced boats. The class average is ~11 sq.m, whereas this boat will have a salon of ~18 sq.m. total by integrating what is usually the aft cockpit into the salon using an innovative glass enclosure system (no fugly canopy/canvas). Unlike competitors the salon provides two separate seating areas (dinettes) and it will be possible to have up to 12 people for indoor dining.

4) The notoriously underutilized forward deck will offer a safe, practical and attractive Bow Cockpit – the cockpit floor immersed below gunwale level - with a unique, comfortable and safe companionway leading directly to the accommodation deck below. The cockpit offers bench seating and/or sun beds and is essentially an “extra” 8-10 sq.m entertaining/sunning area that none of the competing boat models offer.

5) The Flybridge will be more usable in a number of situations and will feel both safer and more private than flybridges on comparably sized boats. This is primarily due to what we call an Integrated Hard Top Frame – essentially a permanent hardtop structure, which is part of the overall design. IOW, it is not a tick-a-box optional; it is a standard feature. The frame is most often used as a base for a flexible sunshade system, which can cover all or part of the seating area.. including the helm. The frame can (will probably) also have embedded LED lighting which together with a mosquito net secured over the frame turns the Flybridge into a perfect entertaining area also after dark. A dedicated rain cover can also expand the usability of the Flybridge when weather is less than ideal. A few innovative features makes it possible to lower the height of the Hard Top frame without compromising the usability of the Flybridge, which obviously makes it easier to integrate it into the design in an eye-pleasing way.

I will expand the descriptions and explanations as the issues are brought up. I think there the thread start is more than long enough already.

 

[vas]

interesting proposal Hugin,

very very curious on the out of the box bow cockpit access to accommodation and the design around it. Looking forward to more discussion on this and eventually and hopefully having a look at plans when feasible

cheers

V.

 

[ian38_39]

Sounds exciting, permanent 8 berth with full size beds, standing room in cabins and double the size elsewhere. assuming the galley isn't an outside BBQ it sounds a winner.

Single engine will be kill or cure and certainly splits the market and your customer base. Not for me personally but plenty would argue the other way.

Look forward to seeing this at Southampton come September.

 

[jrudge]

single engine is in my view a winner on many fronts you probably should incorporate a minimal backup

8 sleeping in cabins . interesting

 

[drh2]

Interesting concept certainly. I had a single engine boat for many years (aquador 32) which was fine but the main point really was that the engine - yanmar 6LY STE - which is a bog standard engine so if it will run it will get you home - as it were. So what engine choice or options would be considered here and would a small wing engine be beneficial if not a huge design/cost impact? Overall though, a refreshing consideration on the current offerings.

 

[vas]

Interesting concept certainly. I had a single engine boat for many years (aquador 32) which was fine but the main point really was that the engine - yanmar 6LY STE - which is a bog standard engine so if it will run it will get you home - as it were. So what engine choice or options would be considered here and would a small wing engine be beneficial if not a huge design/cost impact? Overall though, a refreshing consideration on the current offerings.

on that, also wondering how you're going to utilise the rest of the e/r space (the sides so to speak...) as on 4m beam a single engine in the middle leaves A LOT of space. I'd probably shove the M/C heads all in there (following the sketch on the other thread)

V.

 

[essexboy]

Looks like an interesting project, nice to have a clean sheet of paper to start from. The front well drainage could present a challenge ! Keep up the posting.

 

[Hugin]

I will expand a little on the accommodation.... the whereabouts of the cabins.

Forward: On the lower forward deck there will be 2 single cabins, one to port and one to starboard, with the mentioned companionway leading to the Bow Cockpit separating them. These cabins will have quarter berths angled towards the center, with the foot ends protruding forward under the cockpit floor. Full standing height just inside the door and also plenty of headroom over the head end of the beds. A small wardrobe and a couple of drawers under each bed...... and that's it. The companionway to the Bow Cockpit is a steep staircase..... not a ladder! The level difference to the cockpit floor is about 1.5 m. so 7 steps will do, but the length of the staircase has to be kept to a minimum. By using longitudinally displaced left-right steps it will be possible to reduce the length of the staircase to just under 100 cm, while each step will be 26-28 cm deep. This allows people to easily walk forwards down the steps; something that is often compromised when steps have insufficient depth.

Midships: Here we find the Master Cabin from the previous discussion as well as the day head to starboard. So to summarize this will be a fairly spacious twin/double cabin á la Princess V39, but with improved space and headroom as well as an Ensuite.

Aft End: Oh yes, of course there will be an Aft Cabin; where did you think all these beds would fit? Although you wouldn't guess it from the exterior appearance of the boat. It will be a double cabin partly tugged in under the main dinette, but with a comfortable access-way in-between the dinette and the GRP transom piece and there will be an area ca. 120 x 70 cm with full standing height in the cabin. Reasonable storage opportunities provided of course. The cabin will not be full beam though..... to starboard there will be space for a lazarette, circa 2.5 sq.m. The aft cabin means the Engine Room will be "squeezed" in between two bulkheads; barely 2 meters between them, but at least the ER is full beam. The restricted space will not allow for a twin engined option even if we wanted it. Fuel tanks will be along the hull sides and the rest of the space either side between the engine and the fuel tanks will surely fill up soon enough.

So that's the standard accommodation scheme: 4 cabins/6 beds (midships Master Cabin, aft double cabin and 2 single cabins up front). Either the forward cabins or the aft cabin will be very convenient for general storage when not needed for accommodation.

The observant reader will have noticed there's missing at least a double/twin cabin to reach 8 beds in cabins...... but I did write UP TO 8, didn't I?
The last cabin is semi-permanent and can be installed forward on the main deck. Here the breakfast dinette (for 4 people) and a lounging area can be combined to a double bed simply by removing the back rests. This can be done in a matter of seconds and you immediately can have 2 more people staying overnight..... there is not even a need to lower a table or find an infill cushion. Privacy curtains can even make it a tolerable experience.
However for the full cabin experience a kit of partitioning panels, a cabinet, a door frame and a door must be installed. This will be a 20-30mins job for 2 people and I imagine it will only be used when it is known there will be 8 people aboard for an extended period; say a week. When not needed this kit would most likely be stored on the hard. The cabin will be as spacious and enjoy the same degree of privacy as any other cabin - with an unbeatable view over the water through the windows to port as a bonus - but it will only take up space in the boat when actually needed. The main dinette is large enough to seat 8 people, so it will be possible for all 8 people aboard to share an indoor meal even when the 5th cabin is in use.

So the standard set up is 4 cabins and 6 beds. When needed it can be converted to a 5 cabin 8 beds set up with another 2 beds available if the main dinette is converted to a double. Ten people overnight is pushing it to the limit of course, but I can't see why 8 people should not be entirely doable even for a week or two. Notice how the many beds are spread all over the boat..... no two cabins directly next to each other with a thin board in between.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Sounds like a charter boat to me Hugin, which of course is fine but I dont see bed spaces as driving the 400k segment, esp when you can buy a recent 60' for the money. I wonder if you are chasing the right usp? Of course if you have the focus feedback on that it would be very interesting to read.....

I can see the reasoning behind the two cabin, full beam and vip layout that P are aiming at, makes the owner feel like they are living in 50' territory and are able to provide a special space for their friends but your boat sounds like an expensive game of sardines

Of course, I am not an expert at any anything, let alone naval architecture or design of any description and it is interesting and exciting to read this kind of thread, especially in the current climate. So encouragement and I will look forward to seeing your project evolve, and hopefully proving successful.

 

[Whitelighter]

Sounds like you are thinking along the same lines as Marex with their 32/37 sedan aft cabin boats.

They get three cabins in their 37ft hull so 4 in a 42 sounds doable.

I like some of your ideas. I don't like your dinette cabin conversion. I think moving bulkheads do work (JFM has used them as did jeanneau in their DS43 (you could go from two cabins to three or four with removable bulk heads) but perhaps think elsewhere.

An interesting project. I think your biggest challenge I'll be making it not butt ugly

In fact, look closely at the jeanneau DS43. You have two conventional large cabins when you are in owner mode, which Convert to 4 cabins in party/charter mode. This is your concept so develope what has been done well for sail

 

[Hugin]

Sounds like a charter boat to me

Could be a charter boat. Or ideal for boat sharing (2-3 families to share the first years' depreciation horror and other costs of ownership)
Maybe for a 3-generation's family; kids, parents and grand-parents. Or just for a couple who likes to go places with more friend dropping in and staying some days.
In my childhood..... broadly speaking the 70s, I tried both 3-generation boating (my grand-parents' 10m displacement steel cruiser with aft cabin) as well as sharing costs with another family (although it was a summer cottage, not a boat - same principle applies). It works well and is actually much more fun for all..... at least in my (also later) experience.

I dont see bed spaces as driving the 400k segment

Very hard to say when potential boat buyers have never been given the option. In this segment 2-cabin layouts are by far the most common; only Bavaria Virtess 420 and Galeon 420 Fly offer 3 cabins/6 berths. This means that people who needs 6 or 8 beds look elsewhere. Bigger used mobo or a sailboat. A new 46' Bavaria sailboat with 4 cabins/8 beds can be had for €350 fully equipped and VAT paid (price in Germany). How much would a new 4-cabin planing mobo be? €1.5 - 2.0 mio?

esp when you can buy a recent 60' for the money

Even if the purchase price is comparable the total cost of ownership wont be.
Either way, this argument can be used against ANY purchase of new mobos. You can always get something much bigger for the same money if you go for used........ according to this logic it should be virtually impossible to sell new mobos.

I wonder if you are chasing the right usp?

Number of cabins/beds was only one of five mentioned USPs

Of course if you have the focus feedback on that it would be very interesting to read.....

Read posts #3 and #4... there's the focus group feedback

No, seriously... I can't see how you'd get unbiased focus feedback on a thing like this. Either you'd have to lead with a question "Would you be interested in more beds in your next boat if you could have it without sacrificing other amenities or capabilities?" Everyone would agree they wanted more beds. Or you'd have to wait for people to bring up the subject themselves; except no one ever would because they wouldn't have a clue it was even an option...... they'd assume more cabins meant something else gets sacrificed.

your boat sounds like an expensive game of sardines

As I wrote in the first post; it entirely depends where you come from. If you come from a 30 ft sports cruiser I'd imagine it will be pure bliss; if you come from a 60 ft then it's probably more like being back in the students' dormitory after you'd gotten used to a 5 bedroom mansion.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

However for the full cabin experience a kit of partitioning panels, a cabinet, a door frame and a door must be installed. This will be a 20-30mins job for 2 people and I imagine it will only be used when it is known there will be 8 people aboard for an extended period; say a week. When not needed this kit would most likely be stored on the hard.

Thats a non starter. Most marina berth holders don't have anywhere 'on the hard' to store that lot. In any case, in my experience, occasional guests are usually happy to sleep on a convertible dinette with just a privacy curtain. The other thing is that 8 people living together on a 42ft boat is at least 2 too many. I guess this layout may be of interest to a charter operator but the average owner wouldn't want 8 people sleeping on a boat of this size

I'm also interested how the saloon/integrated cockpit will look. In order to provide full standing headroom in the midships and aft cabins below and full headroom in the saloon/cockpit above, the overall height of the (large) saloon/cockpit structure will be be very imposing to say the least. Also how does this structure affect the stability of the boat?

 

[Nigelpickin]

As I wrote in the first post; it entirely depends where you come from. If you come from a 30 ft sports cruiser I'd imagine it will be pure bliss; if you come from a 60 ft then it's probably more like being back in the students' dormitory after you'd gotten used to a 5 bedroom mansion.
-----------------------------------

Agreed and that's the point which I made in your previous thread,

if you can stand the heat, (and you seem to be well up for it), then I'm sure all the feedback will valuable as the project moves forward and perhaps into production, have you a view on the prospect/likelihood of that?

Best regards and keep the updates coming

 

[Hugin]

Sounds like you are thinking along the same lines as Marex with their 32/37 sedan aft cabin boats.

They are very obviously aft cabin boats with a half-open center cockpit. You can see it from half a mile away...... "here comes an aft cabin boat"
I think the Marex 370 ACC is great..... but mostly because of it's incredibly efficient single engine + shaft arrangement. I don't think many shaft boats come close in propulsive efficiency. I'll happily admit that has inspired me to go single engine & shaft.

They get three cabins in their 37ft hull

That's not quite true...... there's actually only 2 cabins - but there's also a crawl-in quarter berth shoehorned in under the center cockpit and accessible from the forward corridor. To consider this a "cabin" is stretching it a bit.

I like some of your ideas. I don't like your dinette cabin conversion.

That's OK, it's only intended for people with a very specific special need...... a special solution for a special need Others just don't tick that particular box on the list of options.

I think moving bulkheads do work (JFM has used them as did jeanneau in their DS43 (you could go from two cabins to three or four with removable bulk heads)

I couldn't find any links explaining the removable bulkheads. It seems the DS43 was offered with 3 different layouts, but I can't find any mentioning of convertibility.

An interesting project. I think your biggest challenge I'll be making it not butt ugly

It wont look like a Pershing, that's for sure.... but I am moderately confident it won't be a complete eye-sore either

 

[MapisM]

I fully understand it can be very hard to imagine this boat from my written descriptions

Well, you can say that again!

Your features list sounds "obviously" impressive for the size - aside from how much practical and attractive they really are: for instance, the access from the bow to the cabins is imho just a design exercise, aimed at a problem that doesn't exist.
But the first thing I couldn't help thinking, after reading points 3, 4 and 5, is that their practical implementation is bound to look seriously ugly, on a 12m boat. And your further explanations in post #8 only strengthened such impression.
I'm looking forward to when you will feel appropriate to disclose some drawings, and I will gladly eat half a dozen slices of humble pie is she'll be stunning, because that would be a sort of design miracle! :encouragement:

 

[Nigelpickin]

How much would a new 4-cabin planing mobo be? €1.5 - 2.0 mio?

Sorry, just re read and saw this. Prestige manage to put out a nice 4 cabin boat in 4 versions with the 2 50' variants costing around half of your low estimate. The new sealine 530 looks to be at least as competitive. I think a price differential will be important, I know that Prestige struggle to sell their 40 foot boats because it's a, (relatively), small step up in price for the 50 foot boat. That's more than anecdotal and worth considering.

 

[Whitelighter]

I'll try and dig up some info on the converting bulkheads in the DS, but it was the case as I nearly bought one.

The aft cabin split done the middle so the island berth with a seat either side became two twins which convert to doubles with in fills between the bed and ex seats. The coward cabin had two bulkheads you slid in the make the small bunk cabin to starboard or if the cabin lower seat and a Pullman type top bunk.

This advert shows the full aft cabin with the infils and describes the conversion http://m.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Cruiser/jeanneau-sun-odyssey-43-ds/73365?redirm=1

This walk through you tube video shows you how it all works. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGRAlIDdmhI So 42ft boat with convertible flexible accommodation using removable storable bulkheads.

It does sort of suggest that the previous comment about storing things ashore being a mom starter isn't valid - jean beau sold loaded of the DS 43 precisely because of the flexibility

 

[Hugin]

Thats a non starter. Most marina berth holders don't have anywhere 'on the hard' to store that lot.

I think you should see it more for what it is: A unique capability (given the boat size) for a special situation. For the charter boat it can't be a problem. The extra cabin will only be installed when the charter company is expecting 7-8 guests for a charter. Their local man with a van will take care of everything. For the privately owned boat it will be something needed once or twice per season; for the long planned summer cruise with lots of family and/or friends. If you can't store it in your home and if you don't have a big SUV you can transport it in, then there are Self-Storage units for rent and courier services eager to move it for you. Except for the door frame pieces (which could easily go into the lazarette) these partition boards could be dimensioned to stack on a Euro pallet. Wrapped with stretch foil it can't possibly be a problem to neither have it stored nor transported.

In any case, in my experience, occasional guests are usually happy to sleep on a convertible dinette with just a privacy curtain.

Absolutely and that is certainly also possible with this boat........ in fact my layout provides a double without any need for infill cushions (just remove 2 backrest pieces and add privacy curtains..... done!) and there will still be an indoor dinette available where everyone can meet for breakfast in the morning. OTOH, your occasional guests would surely enjoy the stay more if you could offer them a cabin with privacy..... might even stay a night extra......ahh, I see..... could also turn out to be counter-productive

The other thing is that 8 people living together on a 42ft boat is at least 2 too many. I guess this layout may be of interest to a charter operator but the average owner wouldn't want 8 people sleeping on a boat of this size

Why not? I struggle to understand why, say, 6 people is maybe acceptable whereas 8 universally must be considered too many?
IF the boat provides the needed number of cabin/beds with good privacy and IF the galley can keep up with demand for food and drinkables and IF there is adequate daytime entertainment areas (and this boat will have plenty.... in theory seating for 30 people) then I cannot see why any upper number should be universally right or wrong. Claustrophobia and classification (safety) would be the only concerns defining an upper limit....... neither will be an issue with 8 people aboard - except in case of week-long constant lousy weather, which will be tiresome for any number of guests.

I'm also interested how the saloon/integrated cockpit will look.

This issue will have to be shrouded in secrecy for a while.

In order to provide full standing headroom in the midships and aft cabins below and full headroom in the saloon/cockpit above, the overall height of the (large) saloon/cockpit structure will be be very imposing to say the least. Also how does this structure affect the stability of the boat?

Look to Prestige 420. Same beam, slightly shorter hull, somewhat lighter (partly due to vacuum infusion). It has the midships cabin with full headroom to port; a one step raised forward part of the salon and a flybridge. Basically the same "layers". If anything the 420 will have more of a stability issue than my design due to the lower displacement for the same beam/height. Is the 420's superstructure imposing? Personally I don't think it is, but others might view it differently of course.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Why not? I struggle to understand why, say, 6 people is maybe acceptable whereas 8 universally must be considered too many?

We have three dedicated sleeping cabins and I can say that even with two loos, two saloons and a huge outdoor deck five people for more than a night is really, really ample! 8 people for a Saturday night is maybe fun, it's going to do your head in for a week on a 40 foot monohull.

 

[longjohnsilver]

I'm in the Deleted User camp here. We have a 48' mobo with 7 berths, the maximum we've ever had overnight is 5 which was fine, but I really wouldn't want 7 or more. on a 42 footer 6 would be more than enough. 8 in the saloon before going to bed and then first thing in the morning, all fighting to use the facilities, no, not my idea of fun. Unless you somehow plan on installing 3+ heads and showers in addition to all those cabins. I guess it might be just about bearable if you were guaranteed to be always marina berthed near facilities, but then if that were the case, why have a boat at all?