Fulmar & Twister Owners: Opinions please!

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The problem with comparing two very different boats like the Twister and the Fulmar is that you need the advice of someone who has owned both types for a lengthy period. I don't suppose many people have.

I have never owned, or even sailed in, a Fulmar, and I wouldn't have known one if I saw one until I looked it up a few moments ago, so I am completely unfitted to offer an opinion on them.

All I can say is that I owned a Twister for 27 years and never felt I would have wanted any other type of boat (well, I did once consider buying a Rustler but my wife said she much preferred our Twister, so that was the end of that).

It wasn't because I thought other boats were inferior but simply because I had no reason to be unhappy with the Twister.

If, by some miracle of surgery my crippled back were to be restored, I would buy another Twister (or maybe a Rustler ;) )
 
john_morris_uk said:
I don’t know where all this ‘caught out in the storm language’ comes from. The sort of bad weather he may be unlucky enough to encounter will be a summer gale which will be unpleasant but both the Fulmar and the Twister are equally capable of riding out such weather. Both boats have crossed oceans, but the Fulmar will be infinitely more comfortable to live on.
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Probably because the op specifically mentioned the ability to cross oceans and look after you in a blow?
Me, I would rather cross an ocean in a fulmar, but in a bad blow I would rather be in a twister.
 
steve yates said:
Probably because the op specifically mentioned the ability to cross oceans and look after you in a blow?
Me, I would rather cross an ocean in a fulmar, but in a bad blow I would rather be in a twister.
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I’ve sailed multiple thousands of miles across oceans. The strongest winds I’ve encountered were not on ocean crossings. The worst conditions I have got caught out in was when I was younger and more foolish and was in the Bristol channel. (And I hadn’t noted the weather forecast properly!)

Ocean passage making is about choosing your time of year etc according to your route. I met a couple recently who had circumnavigated. They’d never experienced winds much above a Force 6.

If the OP has it in mind to cross oceans one day. There’s simply no reason to go all in and plan for survival conditions that some people suggest the Twister MIGHT be better suited for. Personally I don’t buy that opinion as the Fulmar is a well designed boat that will also survive most things. Furthermore, in survival storms all bets are off for most small boats. It becomes seamanship and your stamina etc that really matters.

Is he really going to take on the Southern Ocean or high latitude sailing? My guess is that he dreams of an Atlantic circuit one day? Even if he goes through Panama and sails the Pacific it’s not known as the peaceful ocean for nothing.Assess the risk and choose the Fulmar IMHO. Ironically all of this might be nugatory advice as if he really wants to live aboard long-term and go long distance cruising, after a few years on the Fulmar my bet is that he will be looking for a larger boat.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I’ve sailed multiple thousands of miles across oceans. The strongest winds I’ve encountered were not on ocean crossings. The worst conditions I have got caught out in when I was younger and more foolish and was in the Bristol channel. (And hadn’t noted the weather forecast properly!)

Ocean passage making is about choosing your time of year etc according to your route. I met a couple recently who had circumnavigated. They’d never experienced winds much above a Force 6.

If the OP has it in mind to cross oceans one day. There’s simply no reason to go all in and plan for survival conditions that some people suggest the Twister MIGHT be better suited for. Personally I don’t buy that opinion as the Fulmar is a well designed boat that will also survive most things. Furthermore, in survival storms all bets are off for most small boats. It becomes seamanship and your stamina etc that really matters.

Is he really going to take on the Southern Ocean or high latitude sailing? My guess is that he dreams of an Atlantic circuit one day? Even if he goes through Panama and sails the Pacific it’s not known as the peaceful ocean for nothing.Assess the risk and choose the Fulmar IMHO. Ironically all of this might mean negatory advice as if he really wants to live aboard long-term and go long distance cruising, after a few years on the Fulmar my bet is that he will be looking for a larger boat.
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I agree. Fulmar would be the right choice, however, a trade wind passage around the world, at the right time of the year can see benign conditions. If you are unlucky, and it really is down to luck, an Atlantic circuit can have far more challenging conditions. The trip out to the Caribbean is rarely an issue. It's Trade winds, after all. The trip back though can, and does cause problems occasionally. You are dealing with depressions tracking across the Atlantic, taking the same route as you.
We have come back 3 times and we have always had to deal with one or more depression between the Caribbean and Ireland. The distances are such that you can set off with a great forecast but being out at sea for maybe, 3 weeks means you are playing roulette. You can't forecast what will happen, even leaving at the time of the year when the weather should be favourable. We have seen winds over 50kts on the return leg. Last year our friends endured winds over 60kts between Ireland and Portugal, admittedly leaving later in the season than I would be happy with. Another friend crossing from Azores to UK got his by a F9. His son got washed over board and back on again on his tether. They lost their sprayhood from green water over the deck.
A very experienced friend who used to deliver yachts from Europe to Florida on a regular basis for a manufacturer, sailed his Fulmar on an Atlantic circuit. On the trip back he got hit by a severe storm. He doesn't know what wind strength as the storm took his mast head instruments off. He sailed under bare poles and towed warps for 2 days whilst he was below strapped into his bunk. The worst conditions he has ever been in. He couldn't praise the Fulmar highly enough. He described it as a brilliant boat.
There is good reason why lots of people ship their boats back.
 
geem said:
I agree. Fulmar would be the right choice, however, a trade wind passage around the world, at the right time of the year can see benign conditions. If you are unlucky, and it really is down to luck, an Atlantic circuit can have far more challenging conditions. The trip out to the Caribbean is rarely an issue. It's Trade winds, after all. The trip back though can, and does cause problems occasionally. You are dealing with depressions tracking across the Atlantic, taking the same route as you.
We have come back 3 times and we have always had to deal with one or more depression between the Caribbean and Ireland. The distances are such that you can set off with a great forecast but being out at sea for maybe, 3 weeks means you are playing roulette. You can't forecast what will happen, even leaving at the time of the year when the weather should be favourable. We have seen winds over 50kts on the return leg. Last year our friends endured winds over 60kts between Ireland and Portugal, admittedly leaving later in the season than I would be happy with. Another friend crossing from Azores to UK got his by a F9. His son got washed over board and back on again on his tether. They lost their sprayhood from green water over the deck.
A very experienced friend who used to deliver yachts from Europe to Florida on a regular basis for a manufacturer, sailed his Fulmar on an Atlantic circuit. On the trip back he got hit by a severe storm. He doesn't know what wind strength as the storm took his mast head instruments off. He sailed under bare poles and towed warps for 2 days whilst he was below strapped into his bunk. The worst conditions he has ever been in. He couldn't praise the Fulmar highly enough. He described it as a brilliant boat.
There is good reason why lots of people ship their boats back.
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Good points well made. Perhaps I’ve been lucky.

I agree 100% about the Fulmar. This folk knowledge about long keeled boats being claimed to be so much better in storms is something I’ve criticised in the past. Whilst the long keeled Twister is certainly better in a storm than light weight high aspect ratio fin keeled racier boats that’s not the point. The Fulmar will also be much better than a light weight high aspect ratio fin keel boat.
 
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#17 mentions the bige keel option. I am not a fan of bilge keel and if, in my youner days I had gone for a Fulmar I would have had the fin version. But I also had a bigger budget so maintaining a fin ashore would be easy. However, with a bilge kee one can put it aground on a sandy beach & give it a scrub & do the antifoul paint between tides. With the current climate regular scrubbing is becoming more important to boat speed.
Maintenance between tides can be easier if one puts it on the hard & can get ashore when the tide goes out to get parts or stores etc.
I am told by bilge keel owners that they are as fast as fin keels. But they all say that & I do not believe them. There is the "we draw less so can get in shallow water easier" brigade. I would write that one off unless you get a permanent berth in a tidal basin & cannot wait 30 mins
If you do get to some foreign dodgy marina & have to store the boat over winter bilge keels are safer & you do not have to pay for a cradle or see your boat propped on a few suspect poles ( As can happen in the UK as well)
 
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Daydream believer said:
#17 mentions the bige keel option. I am not a fan of bilge keel and if, in my youner days I had gone for a Fulmar I would have had the fin version. But I also had a bigger budget so maintaining a fin ashore would be easy. However, with a bilge kee one can put it aground on a sandy beach & give it a scrub & do the antifoul paint between tides. With the current climate regular scrubbing is becoming more important to boat speed.
Maintenance between tides can be easier if one puts it on the hard & can get ashore when the tide goes out to get parts or stores etc.
I am told by bilge keel owners that they are as fast as fin keels. But they all say that & I do not believe them. There is the "we draw less so can get in shallow water easier" brigade. I would write that one off unless you get a permanent berth in a tidal basin & cannot wait 30 mins
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I think bilge keel design varies considerably. Some of the older bilge keelers were appalling designs. There are not many modern bilge keelers about. The RM range being an exception. I wonder how these modern designs compare to the fin keel alternative.
I don't think it's possible to improve on the deep fin keel design or race boats would have them so bilge keels will always be slower, but how much,
is an interesting question.
 
Semi-drying moorings are available for bilge keel boats which deeper keel boats cannot use. So that increases the choices for bilge keel owners, and reduces the cost. I couldn’t put a fin or long keeled boat on my current mooring. Also I can explore creeks where I wouldn’t have the courage to take a deep keel. In my judgement these are an acceptable trade-off for slightly reduced sailing performance.
Individual choices based on your priorities and sailing ground.
 
geem said:
I think bilge keel design varies considerably. Some of the older bilge keelers were appalling designs. There are not many modern bilge keelers about. The RM range being an exception. I wonder how these modern designs compare to the fin keel alternative.
I don't think it's possible to improve on the deep fin keel design or race boats would have them so bilge keels will always be slower, but how much,
is an interesting question.
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We've had three bilge keelers, Centaur, Berwick and Moody 346. I would describe them as OK, better and best. Sailing around North Wales and the Irish Sea, allowed us to use several drying harbours, where our present Moody 376 scheel keel wouldn't be suitable. As @Daydream believer says, also good and cheaper for beaching for cleaning off/antifouling and some maintenance.

Writing off all bilge keeled boats as slower than fin keel ones is silly as performance of both types varies and some bilge keelers can be faster than some fins. We won the Midsummer cup in Conwy with the 346 against all the fin keelers entered, in very lively conditions.
 
geem said:
I think bilge keel design varies considerably. Some of the older bilge keelers were appalling designs. There are not many modern bilge keelers about. The RM range being an exception. I wonder how these modern designs compare to the fin keel alternative.
I don't think it's possible to improve on the deep fin keel design or race boats would have them so bilge keels will always be slower, but how much,
is an interesting question.
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The OP was discussing Twisters & Fulmars so I was thinking of a bilge keel Fulmar.
I agreed with #17 on maintenane grounds
Typically a couple of forumites suggested that the OP might be wrong & did not even want a fulmar.
Then added a few irrelevant boats for fun
 
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Graham376 said:
We've had three bilge keelers, Centaur, Berwick and Moody 346. I would describe them as OK, better and best. Sailing around North Wales and the Irish Sea, allowed us to use several drying harbours, where our present Moody 376 scheel keel wouldn't be suitable. As @Daydream believer says, also good and cheaper for beaching for cleaning off/antifouling and some maintenance.

Writing off all bilge keeled boats as slower than fin keel ones is silly as performance of both types varies and some bilge keelers can be faster than some fins. We won the Midsummer cup in Conwy with the 346 against all the fin keelers entered, in very lively conditions.
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It sounds like the Moody 346 was a good bilge keeler, as is the Fulmar. Whether they are faster than a fin with the same capable crew is debatable. My guess is that they are not, but in uncertain conditions when the wind pipes up, they may not be so disadvantaged. A better crew could out perform a less capable crew.
If you just look at the basic physics, a twin keel boat has more drag so in light conditions, they will be at a disadvantage. Pointing ability comes with draft. You don't see race boats with short keels or twin keels. It is possible that the Moody fin keels were not a particularly good design but I doubt it.
More likely you just sailed better on the day
 
john_morris_uk said:
I’ve sailed multiple thousands of miles across oceans. The strongest winds I’ve encountered were not on ocean crossings. The worst conditions I have got caught out in was when I was younger and more foolish and was in the Bristol channel. (And I hadn’t noted the weather forecast properly!)

Ocean passage making is about choosing your time of year etc according to your route. I met a couple recently who had circumnavigated. They’d never experienced winds much above a Force 6.

If the OP has it in mind to cross oceans one day. There’s simply no reason to go all in and plan for survival conditions that some people suggest the Twister MIGHT be better suited for. Personally I don’t buy that opinion as the Fulmar is a well designed boat that will also survive most things. Furthermore, in survival storms all bets are off for most small boats. It becomes seamanship and your stamina etc that really matters.

Is he really going to take on the Southern Ocean or high latitude sailing? My guess is that he dreams of an Atlantic circuit one day? Even if he goes through Panama and sails the Pacific it’s not known as the peaceful ocean for nothing.Assess the risk and choose the Fulmar IMHO. Ironically all of this might be nugatory advice as if he really wants to live aboard long-term and go long distance cruising, after a few years on the Fulmar my bet is that he will be looking for a larger boat.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost every word, which is why I said I would rather cross an ocean on the fulmar than a twister. But, in the conditions geem describes his friend encountered, personally I would rather be in the twister. Boats, as we all know, are a series of compromises.
I’m not sure I would be planning for planning for survival conditions, more like thinking through what is required to avoid getting into survival conditions in the first place, if it was me.
 
steve yates said:
I agree with almost every word, which is why I said I would rather cross an ocean on the fulmar than a twister. But, in the conditions geem describes his friend encountered, personally I would rather be in the twister. Boats, as we all know, are a series of compromises.
I’m not sure I would be planning for planning for survival conditions, more like thinking through what is required to avoid getting into survival conditions in the first place, if it was me.
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One thing to consider is that small boats move around a lot more than larger boats. Comparing a Twister with less capable boats of the same length, you would choose the Twister. Choosing a boat to sail long distance, or cross over the Channel or to Ireland, the Fulmar would be the obvious choice. Far more comfort. A shower if you want one. Room for guests and being larger, the motion will certainly not be worse than a Twister in a blow. They were sailing school boats of choice for good reason. The sailing schools rarely cancel a booking. They would go out in virtually any weather because they are very capable boats.
As I mentioned in a previous post, some passages you have no choice but to deal with the weather that is thrown at you. If you only plan to sail in coastal waters, you are never far from a port of refuge. Forecast are pretty accurate at least 3 days forward. Why not have the larger boat with more creature comforts. You aren't going to get caught out in bad weather and the Fulmar would deal with it anyway
 
I think you’ll find I have actually been recommending the fulmar to the op, for a lot of those reasons :)
But we would be remiss not to point out the couple of areas the twister may have an advantage.
No boat is better at everything than another is it?
The logical choice is a fulmar, but we are talking boats here, so logic probably has nowt to do with it :)
 
The only time I have sailed my fin keeled Fulmar alongside a twin keel version, I just walked away. The other owner kept turning his engine on to catch up. Later he then said he had a dirty bottom and wanted a rematch. I know the result would have been the same. I also have a folding propeller and I think he has a fixed one, so he is at a double disadvantage. Next season I will be sailing with another twin keel Fulmar and expect the results to be the same. From memory the old Portsmouth Yardstick showed a 3 difference in rating for just a twin keel version.
 
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