Flare Replacement.

[lustyd]

Pyros are not hard to source, store or dispose off in the majority of UK sailing places.

Needlessly expensive, needlessly short shelf life, almost impossible to responsibly dispose of, with plans to make this harder and more expensive.

The choice of laser or nothing is an odd one. The event that requires the use of pyrotechnics or LED Flares, is a low probability event, but with sever consequences of single or multiple fatalities, if nothing is done to mitigate the risks.

Not just low probability, extremely low probability to the point that most will not intentionally plan for it. The severity of outcome is irrelevant if people don't think it'll happen. I suspect that most on this forum don't feel the need to mitigate the risks, hence the choice I outlined. You may disagree, but that's immaterial to the point. The reality is that people have already ruled out pyros because the stress of them vastly outweighs the risk of needing them.

If we as a community genuinely think they are that important then it would be quite easy to fix these problems. In reality the opposite is happening and organisations like RYA, MCA etc. are helping to remove the need for flares, not make them easier to deal with. There are scenarios where I would buy some, but for the vast majority of my coastal and channel sailing I'll take the very small risk.

 

[Sandy]

I don't like having explosives on a boat.

Do you cook on gas or have any petrol for an outboard?

 

[FWB]

Do you cook on gas or have any petrol for an outboard?

I for one don’t!
Paraffin cooker and electric outboard for the tender. The only flares are in the liferaft I guess.

 

[Praxinoscope]

The only pyrotechnics I carry are those in the life raft, (as yet LED flares not utilised in life-raft packages), I do carry LED flares and am currently looking at up-grading to Sirius LED. I also have a PLB which when activated will not only send distress signal, it identifies my position pretty accurately for at least 12 hours, ( should be sufficient anywhere in the Irish Sea which is my sailing area).
There is a discussion on another thread at the moment about electronic nav’ or paper chart nav’, I think the discussion between LED and pyro’ will split along similar lines for a while, but with the difficulty of disposal and expense of pyro’s (until 5 years ago for the 45 years of sailing I religiously replaced my Pyro flares on their expiry dates, but then changed to LED) I think there will be a steady expansion of LED adoption, new and better LED flares will become available and the market for pyro’s will gradually decline.
Like Daydream believer we used to carry a Very pistol, but this was many years ago, strangely enough the other day I was clearing out some old paperwork and found the fire arms licence for it.

 

[Sandy]

Years ago there was a horrible accident on a safety course. The instructor was demonstrating setting off a red parachute and for some reason instead of the rocket launching into the sky, the cannister propelled backwards and penetrated his stomach. Poor guy.

That was Duncan Wells, of Stress Free Sailing, alive and well last time I spoke to him at the Southampton Boat Show.

 

[Gsailor]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...QQY8SXTMnckbuo3kUnpWTA85ml&id=100064678208383
A report that demonstrates to me at least the perfect blend of electronic and traditional aids to search and rescue.

since most of us sail by day should we not carry the most visible aid possible? It certainly got those fishermen rescued in quick time.
As an ex SAR pilot, I personally feel there is nothing better than pyros for getting seen from the air. I have not used or seen the latest LED flares but smoke and heat is such a useful aid to location

I will take the words of an ex-SAR pilot over many other views.

A lot to be sorted out still.

I once had to let off a para flare in extremus with nothing to go by but the instructions via torch light.

All went well.

Disposal is an issue; I still have flares expired in 2001. They may work.

 

[stone beach]

Slightly off track I know but sort of relevant side bar about flare disposal, which I think is one of the main drivers leading most to non pyrotechnic solutions.

Called the RNLI in Poole the other day to get some help with disposal of out of date flares.
This after I had researched Gov web site, going round in several circles which seemed to end at RNLI, (not HM Coastguard).

RNLI phone answer was pretty short, no longer taking them "from the public"..... what are they thinking?... who are they there to help if not the public? I said I was prepared to pay for the service, or donate or whatever. No change, "Can't help you, check the Government web site". That's what brought me to you says I, "Can't help you, the website must be wrong" at which point I gave up and hoped he wasn't on watch if I ever needed help at sea.

Next I tried Ocean Safety in Southampton, very friendly, very helpful, took my old flares there and was dealt with very efficiently.

I would like to carry flares but concerned about future provision of disposal facilities, waiting to see what next year brings before deciding on replacement.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Stone beach #67, what made you think that the RNLI were into the collection and disposal of flares?
The gov. website only mentions the RNLI in a paragraph about the illegality of leaving flares outside any of the premisses of RNLI, Police Station, Coastguard etc.

 

[lustyd]

what made you think that the RNLI were into the collection and disposal of flares?

They said why right there in the post. The RNLI announced relatively recently they would no longer take out of date flares from the public. Guess why they would announce it with the words "no longer"

 

[Praxinoscope]

They said why right there in the post. The RNLI announced relatively recently they would no longer take out of date flares from the public. Guess why they would announce it with the words "no longer"

But Stone beach referred to the gov. Website, which doesn’t list RNLI for flare collection, they may have done once, but the RNLI person was correct in saying they don’t anymore, and fr Stone beach to go off on one complaining about RNLI and serving the public is a bit OTT.

 

[penberth3]

......RNLI phone answer was pretty short, no longer taking them "from the public"..... what are they thinking?... who are they there to help if not the public?......

And WTF are you thinking, why should the RNLI deal with your hazardous waste? Anything else you'd like them to take, old paint, engine oil?

 

[lustyd]

Before they were billionaires I think they found it useful to have some for training purposes, and a useful way to get donations and interact with the boating public. I guess they no longer need the money and they can afford new ones for training.

 

[rotrax]

As the OP I think things are getting heated for the wrong reasons here.

We do reasonable passagemaking with our boat, but we are rarely more than 80 miles from the nearest land. We have an EPIRB, a recently serviced liferaft, a powerful VHF set, a regularly used and tested handheld VHF plus an out of date offshore pyrotechnic flare kit. The Grabag is updated with fresh water and energy bars at the start of each season. I believe the LED Flare will be as useful in the safety locker as the fireworks.

Having a great regard for the RNLI, First Mate and I watch 'Saving Lives at Sea' regularly. I can only remember two instances on screen of a smoke being used to attract attention to a SAR vessel or aircraft. I might be wrong, and we probably have not seen all the episodes.

Like my choice of Stern Seal, I have chosen a modern type rather than a Victorian type that squeezes a bit of string around the shaft.

The world is changing fast, perhaps with the increasing issues around pyrotechnics, my choice might be in vogue before too long.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Re. Disposal of flares.

Ocean Safety will take them off your hands for £2 each.
Not advertised on their websites, but that’s what I was told when I visited one of their depots a couple of weeks ago.

• Ocean Safety - Southampton Southampton, Hampshire, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 23 80 720 800
• Ocean Safety - Plymouth Plymouth, Devon, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0)1752 341 787
• Ocean Safety - Greenock Greenock, Inverclyde, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 1475 729 075
• Ocean Safety - Aberdeen Aberdeen, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 1224 871 764

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Re. Disposal of flares.

Ocean Safety will take them off your hands for £2 each.
Not advertised on their websites, but that’s what I was told when I visited one of their depots a couple of weeks ago.

• Ocean Safety - Southampton Southampton, Hampshire, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 23 80 720 800
• Ocean Safety - Plymouth Plymouth, Devon, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0)1752 341 787
• Ocean Safety - Greenock Greenock, Inverclyde, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 1475 729 075
• Ocean Safety - Aberdeen Aberdeen, United Kingdom
  Phone: +44 (0) 1224 871 764

Phone them first. Last time I was at Greenock branch they were full up. They have a special box where the flares go before being collected and it was full. Checking first would save a wasted trip.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

...plus an out of date offshore pyrotechnic flare kit. ... The world is changing fast, perhaps with the increasing issues around pyrotechnics, my choice might be in vogue before too long.

There are no increasing issues around pyrotechnics. In fact, commercial disposal is now a lot easier from chandlers and specialist agencies, than it was a decade or so ago.

I agree that one day they will become redundant, but for certain conditions, the LED "pyro" has not replaced the intensity of a pyrotechnic and therefore remains a valid piece of safety equipment. The fact that you are prepared to keep out of date pyros on your boat suggests that you think so too, otherwise why would you have them?

As a result of this thread, and reviewing the LEDs, I agree, have been convinced, that they have greater utility simply because they illuminate far longer than the limited burn time of pyrotechnics. I will be buying one for my boat. Still, for the reason I previously mentioned, I will be replacing my offshore flares for next season (expire in January).

 

[Roberto]

the LED "pyro" has not replaced the intensity of a pyrotechnic

Something it will likely never replace is heat, which makes burning flares and even smoke signals at night more "visible" to thermal cameras.

 

[ylop]

since most of us sail by day should we not carry the most visible aid possible? It certainly got those fishermen rescued in quick time.
As an ex SAR pilot, I personally feel there is nothing better than pyros for getting seen from the air. I have not used or seen the latest LED flares but smoke and heat is such a useful aid to location

I don’t know how you can say pyros are best then in the next sentence say you have never seen the latest LEDs! I agree that smoke has no modern replacement. (I still carry pyros for now too)

Satnav gets you to the right end of the road. If you know you are looking for a red door, finding it is much quicker. The brighter the aid the quicker you are likely to be seen

but to use your analogy - both still have “a red door” it’s just that with a pyro the red fades after a minute and, perhaps at best, you can refresh it a few time.

Needlessly expensive, needlessly short shelf life, almost impossible to responsibly dispose of, with plans to make this harder and more expensive.

I’ve never had a problem paying two different chandlers to take the old ones.

Before they were billionaires I think they found it useful to have some for training purposes, and a useful way to get donations and interact with the boating public. I guess they no longer need the money and they can afford new ones for training.

I think you are wrong. They reviewed the risk and decided it wasn’t worth the (probably small) risk of handling / using expired pyros for the cost saving. I suspect a lot of people used to “donate” their trash and not their money so probably wasn’t a useful revenue generator, and interacting with the public who have flares and are replacing them may be the least useful demographic to engage with!

 

[rotrax]

The increasing issues are perhaps the cost for a device with a short life, both at purchase and then disposal.

Not all Chandlers take them in, not everyone has an Ocean Safety depot near them. Sending by post is not on, is it?

 

[Lightwave395]

We have two of these onboard as well as two PLB's and a boat EPIRB plus a box of 'RORC required' but now slightly out of date pyros (hidden so the French authorities can't easily find them)

rescueME EDF1 Electronic Distress Flare