Flare Replacement.

boomerangben said:
If you’ve got a PLB, you only need a flare once you can see the helicopter/lifeboat so don’t need it to run for hours or perhaps even minutes. I have not seen an LED flare used in anger but if I had one, I would be interested to see how visible it was on a bright sunny day, the days we like to go sailing. Is it better than smoke?
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See post #40 and look at the Sirius video on the website.

On bright sunny days the flash of sunlight on a car windscreen can be seen for miles, ditto heliograph signals.

True knowlege is the product of direct experience.

The US Coastguard are quite conservative in their outlook. If they have approved some, they are likely to be effective.
 
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rotrax said:
If it is, in reallity, half as good as it looks, it will do for me!
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To each his own. But i think it is only fair to consider the downsides as well as the ups. Then make a decision.
I might add that 3 miles is not far & most of my sailing, even on short hops, is over 3 miles off shore.
If you decide to go down one route in lieu of another there is no problem with that. So long as you consider the differences.
It seems that you have (y)
 
Daydream believer said:
I carry a plastic holder with 10 mini flares all in the pouch with my PLB attached to my LJ. I am not sure how long I could hold an electric flare above my head for in a position that it could be seen. What range could one expect to see a man holding one in a 1 metre swell? Not far I would surmise.

My feeling is that if 8 miles offshore a phone is useless. ( It is even in my own home) . I doubt that people on land would recognise a flashing red light & be aware that it was not a navigation mark. If the public were made aware of it then the rescue services would be inundated with false calls about navigation lights on red buoys.
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The one I have is designed to give the appearance of a flame rather than a straight on off flash, and between that sos flashing. Yes if in swell much less use. It floats head up and I have it on a leash so it could float nearby and be at the top of the swell some of the time. I think the idea of it being on for 5 hours is really a big point worth considering. Probably as long as I'd last.

I was glad to get a PLB instead of relying on a hand held VHF which is a bit rubbish over any distance. The DSC sos message though might get through where clear voice doesn't. I think overall the LED for honing in and the VHF and PLB for raising the alarm seems to cover most of the bases but I'd have considered the smoke flare if it wasn't over £60. Same price as a pack of miniflares which might be better.
 
I fully respect and support the philosophy that each skipper can pick and choose their sailing kit, from socks to spinnakers, radios to radars etc etc. I do feel quite strongly about flares, based on my experiences as a SAR pilot. I offer my opinions based on my experiences, knowing they are quite unusual. I totally get the opinions regarding expense, inconvenience and danger of pyros. I am merely providing a different view point which you can take or leave. I sincerely hope no one ever needs rescuing, whatever their choice of visual aid they choose.
i am sorry if I come across as being authoritative on this, I am merely putting opinions out there for people to consider that they might not have thought of.
My final thought on this. The USCG approve the use of the SIRIUS as a night time aid. Sirius is shipped with a 3’ square flag to satisfy the daylight requirement. It’s not a solution for me. My most likely scenario is man overboard by day. PLB and day night fits nicely on a life jacket belt.
 
I can't imagine anyone disagrees with your views, it seems clear that pyros are overall a better option. The simple reality though is that overall safety isn't the only part of the equation. Government and suppliers have made buying, owning, storing, and disposing of flares extremely difficult and balancing this against the small chance of needing one a lot of us come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. Laser flares almost certainly aren't as good, but the choice isn't laser or pyrotechnic for most people, it's laser or nothing since pyros are already crossed off of the list. Yes, that certainly makes rescue harder, but I don't think it's necessarily an irresponsible choice for most coastal sailors who will be clipped on, probably sailing in reasonable weather, and wearing a lifejacket.
The important thing is to ensure everyone is on the same page as to how effective things are, and input from SAR pilots is very helpful there.
 
lustyd said:
I can't imagine anyone disagrees with your views, it seems clear that pyros are overall a better option. The simple reality though is that overall safety isn't the only part of the equation. Government and suppliers have made buying, owning, storing, and disposing of flares extremely difficult and balancing this against the small chance of needing one a lot of us come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. Laser flares almost certainly aren't as good, but the choice isn't laser or pyrotechnic for most people, it's laser or nothing since pyros are already crossed off of the list. Yes, that certainly makes rescue harder, but I don't think it's necessarily an irresponsible choice for most coastal sailors who will be clipped on, probably sailing in reasonable weather, and wearing a lifejacket.
The important thing is to ensure everyone is on the same page as to how effective things are, and input from SAR pilots is very helpful there.
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A good and accurate summing up. :)
 
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I used to carry a very pistol. The flare date issue did not arise. It was also useful for a cheap white flare alternative when about to be run down by a ship. It also gave a fairly loud bang when discharged. Handy in poor vis. AIS transponders have replaced the need for white flares.

I could fire & forget. Much easier than a parachute, which does not actually show one's position in the same way. It was also far quicker & safer to use.
Unfortunately, I was unable to obtain replacement cartridges so had to hand it in to a police station. I believe that plastic sets are obtainable, but not in the UK.
 
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Rotrax, did you buy direct from the US?

Have been after one (dual color light version) for a while but their shipping looks like it could be costly when taxes and handling fees are added.

Keep us up to date on how it goes if you dont mind
 
Daydream believer said:
I used to carry a very pistol. The flare date issue did not arise. It was also useful for a cheap white flare alternative when about to be run down by a ship. It also gave a fairly loud bang when discharged. Handy in poor vis. AIS transponders have replaced the need for white flares.

I could fire & forget. Much easier than a parachute, which does not actually show one's position in the same way. It was also far quicker & safer to use.
Unfortunately, I was unable to obtain replacement cartridges so had to hand it in to a police station. I believe that plastic sets are obtainable, but not in the UK.
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A real can of worms with the requirement to have a Firearms Certificate. :(
 
Daydream believer said:
I used to carry a very pistol. The flare date issue did not arise. It was also useful for a cheap white flare alternative when about to be run down by a ship. It also gave a fairly loud bang when discharged. Handy in poor vis. AIS transponders have replaced the need for white flares.

I could fire & forget. Much easier than a parachute, which does not actually show one's position in the same way. It was also far quicker & safer to use.
Unfortunately, I was unable to obtain replacement cartridges so had to hand it in to a police station. I believe that plastic sets are obtainable, but not in the UK.
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I used to have a Very pistol but as @rotrax mentions the powers to be have made it very difficult to have. I used to have shotguns but they have gone due to increased requirements and a Very pistol is classed as a firearm, so the next level up in the requirements.
I can see the storage requirements tightening up for flares in the next few years which will make the led flares a much better item to have on board.
 
For once, as H&S regulations seem to increase everywhere, in France pyrotechnics are easier and easier to get: everyone selling them is obliged to take back expired ones; also, marinas usually organize a couple of periods during the year when everyone can dispose of their own expired ones at no cost. Maybe it's the reason authorities are more stringent when they find expired flares onboard (?)
 
Bobc said:
I don't like having explosives on a boat.

With all the electronic devices we now have, I think flares are really a last resort.

If you need to call for help, you have a VHF, and mobile phone, an EPIRB/PLB, AIS alert, etc. If you need to alert another boat/ship of your location, you have VHF, powerful torch. So mostly, I think flares are of most use in location assist for SAR services, and orange smoke is best for that.

I have an LED flare, but also keep 2 x red paras, and 2 x floating smokes, just in case the fit hits the shan.
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I don't like having explosives on board either, but I did once come to someones aid, a broken down motor boat in the Bristol Channel. They had no VHF but they had a red parachute flare which I spotted and went to investigate. I stood by until the lifeboat came. I don't plan to replace mine as they go out of date . With Epirb, PLB, AIS and red and white LED flares, plus phones, I think that gives quite a few options. Plus there are flares in the life raft. But I will keep orange smoke. For a long ocean passageI think I'd stock up on flares .
I am nervous about having to use them as well. Years ago there was a horrible accident on a safety course. The instructor was demonstrating setting off a red parachute and for some reason instead of the rocket launching into the sky, the cannister propelled backwards and penetrated his stomach. Poor guy.
 
lustyd said:
I can't imagine anyone disagrees with your views, it seems clear that pyros are overall a better option. The simple reality though is that overall safety isn't the only part of the equation. Government and suppliers have made buying, owning, storing, and disposing of flares extremely difficult and balancing this against the small chance of needing one a lot of us come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. Laser flares almost certainly aren't as good, but the choice isn't laser or pyrotechnic for most people, it's laser or nothing since pyros are already crossed off of the list. Yes, that certainly makes rescue harder, but I don't think it's necessarily an irresponsible choice for most coastal sailors who will be clipped on, probably sailing in reasonable weather, and wearing a lifejacket.
The important thing is to ensure everyone is on the same page as to how effective things are, and input from SAR pilots is very helpful there.
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Pyros are not hard to source, store or dispose off in the majority of UK sailing places. The safe use of pyros is not that difficult either and is well within the competency of many coastal sailors should they read the instructions.

The choice of laser or nothing is an odd one. The event that requires the use of pyrotechnics or LED Flares, is a low probability event, but with sever consequences of single or multiple fatalities, if nothing is done to mitigate the risks.

Absolutely, personal AIS, PLB. LED "Flare" and boat EPIRB, DSC, VHF are primary mitigations, but to reject pyrotechnics for the reason you give is my view misguided for these rare, high severity events. It doesn't matter how the situation comes about, but if you need a high intensity distress illumination of your situation, pyrotechnics are better than any LED. This is why I will continue to carry them as they are simply a superior form of distress illumination and if I need that, I want them available.

I have practised many MOB drills, well over a thousand, many at night. The simple flashing bulb on a horseshoe light is incredibly good at identifying a position at night. I have never tested my L/J bulbs at night but they too would be in the range of the horseshoe light. As a result of this thread, I am wondering if the LED Pyro clipped to myself would be a good investment, after all they are very low cost for what they are, but it would be as a personal aid for MOB. Having mini flares or standard pyros on yourself for the situation where you fall overboard would not be worth it compared to the L/J light and LED Pyro, in that situation.
 
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